A level grades vs UCAS points

[unisoon]

Can anyone advise which is more important for Uni applications-is it individual A level grades in, say, 3 academic subjects or is total UCAS points more important (i.e. including points from extras such as extended project, general studies etc)? Can having the extra UCAS points from the additional qualifications compensate for slightly lower grades in the main subjects?
DC hopes to apply for a science subject at a competitive university.

If you are applying to a RG Uni, then A level grades are what matter. Ucas points are only relevant to the less sought after unis.

What jeane said. Although the EPQ is well regarded and may result in a fractionally lower offer, only one grade though, for applicants with decent and relevant EPQ.

UCAS points from non-related things, drama, music exams etc, MAY swing it at a selecting university if they have two identical candidates and only one offer left. But don't rely on that - it's very rare that two applicants are identical, and universities can recruit as many students as they like, although clearly science offers can be limited by lab space.

As Jeanne says, it depends on the quality of the University. We only look at specific A Levels.

Can having the extra UCAS points from the additional qualifications compensate for slightly lower grades in the main subjects? DC hopes to apply for a science subject at a competitive university

The simple (simplistic) answer here is: No.

It could be that extra activities/points might swing it, but frankly, it's highly unlikely. Best to plan for A Level results being the only thing.

Best that he tries to understand and learn to the best of his ability so that he can demonstrate that knowledge and understanding in exams and assessments.

The "better" universities, many of which are not in the RG group (examples could include St. Andrews, Bath, Lancaster, Surrey) will be grade based offers.

Every Uni does provide details of its typical offer requirement for every course it offers so there is lots of information readily available. Taking as an example Chemistry:

Cambridge - RG Uni - ranked 1st for the subject (although its part of NatSci there) requires A A A

Durham - RG Uni - ranked in top 5 for subject, requirement AAA, with Maths along with Chemistry both required, although neither has to be the A

Bath - not RG - in top 10 for subject, typical offer AAB

Nottingham - RG Uni, still top 20 for the subject - typical offer AAB - ABB

Sussex - not RG, still top 20 for the subject - typical offer ABB

UCLAN - not RG, mid / lower 30s for subject - requirement 280 UCAS points

Northumbria - not RG, towards lower end of subject ranking - requirement 300 UCAS points, including a specific 100 pts for Chemistry

Average achieved UCAS points (so includes everthing that would be counted by UCAS eg 4th AS, General Studies / Critical Thinking A2, EPQ etc)

Cambridge : 663
Durham : 571
Bath : 452
Nottingham 454
Sussex : 402
UCLAN : 324
Northumbria : 329

DS was offered AAA from Durham in a Science subject. He got A* in his chosen subject, A and B. So the right points but wrong grades. This was around 4-5 years ago. After 5 days deliberating they rejected him.

ds1 has offers for competitive science courses this year. None of the universities/courses he looked at closely were interested in a "points equivalent" offer. And some courses are giving very high offers this year.

A friend's DS had an AAA offer from Newcastle but achieved A* AB. They still took him though. So long as they get the magic ABB, some unis will still take them.

So long as they get the magic ABB, some unis will still take them.

Number caps have now been completely removed, so the difference between ABB and below ABB is no longer relevant for funding.

For the most competitive courses, UMS scores at AS are very important. So four As at AS and four A* predictions may not be enough. Cambridge, Imperial, Warwick etc will be looking for average UMS scores in the 90s.

Thank you everyone for making things clearer and for your own experiences of the admissions requirements at different unis.
DS is under pressure from his school to take these extras (general studies, critical thinking, extended project) but he doesn't see the point and would rather concentrate on his chosen main sciences, particularly Chemistry.

The school makes a big thing of average UCAS points score per pupil (prominently displayed on the home page of its website!) and tells parents that this really helps with uni admission but it sounds like this is not really the whole story. As far as I know the actual average grade per A level entry is not that amazing (they don't mention it anyway).
DS is predicted A grades at AS but the UMS comment is interesting- perhaps dropping the extras would give him a better chance of achieving high UMS if this is important for the best unis. As far as I know UMS has not been discussed by teachers.

General studies is frequently not counted towards A level requirements stipulated by Universities and critical thinking won't persuade anyone very much either unless he has to do this sort of test at some point. Unlikely though. As eloquently described above, it is way better to get the grades in the A levels that are actually required. If he has spare time, go above and beyond to demonstrate a clear interest in his favoured subject. His school should know better than to push UCAS points. The reason the UCAS scores are so high at the top universities quoted above is that plenty of students will have done four A2 subjects and a host of music and other exams which give UCAS points. This is definitely true for Cambridge and Durham.

Generally admissions offices are very helpful. You could phone a couple of aspirational courses and ask what they would be looking for, whether they are likely to ask for UMS scores etc, and whether sucessful applicants routinely exceed their standard offer.

I think you are right though. At the top end they want to see good grades, and only on the margins do the extras make any difference. DS was at a very academic private school and did not do any of the extras you mentioned. In fairness he was expected to do some reading round his subject and enter a couple of school essay competitions, which helped first confirm his interest in his subject and give him something to talk about in his PS and at interview. Can your DS access any public lectures? Is he reading New Scientist or some popular science books? Others might correct me but I think activites round his subject would be more valuable.

As others have said, more prestigious places go on points.

If they offer on points, you need to read the offer very careful. A lot of them will specify which subjects they have to come from, and sometimes exclude AS grades. Many will exclude achievements such as music and drama exams, and other extra-curricular achievements.

Umm, Cottonmouth it's the most "prestigious" places DON'T use points. Well, nowhere I've worked does/has, and I've always worked in research-intensive universities. We use A level grades.

And I've never worked in a place that counts a General Studies A level towards the offer.

I'm a bit confused by boys3, it's a great post and has useful information but as 3 x A* = 420 points the fact the average points at the top 4 universities is higher than this suggests that the people taking 'extras' are the ones that are being given offers, even if the offers themselves are directly related to 3 A level grades.

I might be getting the wrong end of the stick by what you mean as "extras" but surely the difference between the minimum entry requirement and the average actual obtained result may comprise of A levels and AS Levels that aren't General Studies, Critical Thinking etc. For example, DS1 needed AAA and got A* AABb - none of them in GS etc.

Oddboots don't forget to add the likely 60 points for an A grade AS which pretty much all Oxbridge entrants will have. A lot will also do the EPQ which has points and is well regarded and a grade 6+ music exam would be fairly usual. It's not that you NEED these extras though to be offered, more like the type of kid that aims for Oxbridge is doing these extras anyway - they tend to be a fairly driven type of kid!

Sorry, I wan't very clear.

What I mean is that it could maybe be bad advice to encourage a young person to only do 3 A Levels and ignore other things as they then might not get an offer even if they ended up with 3 A* grades.

The OP says "DS is under pressure from his school to take these extras (general studies, critical thinking, extended project) but he doesn't see the point and would rather concentrate on his chosen main sciences, particularly Chemistry." Which is what concerned me.

Yes - just because someone has the extras doesn't mean that's what got them the offer - but in the stats that get published the grade 7 piano, A in critical thinking etc still get added.

I know the UCAS points are awarded for the things that make a candidate an all rounder and aren't always taken with the points in mind but actively choosing to avoid doing them might reduce the offers given.

Oops, Chimney - that's what I meant to say ;)

Incidentally, we were at Newcastle last week for a post offer open day. The admissions tutor for DD's course gave a presentation and said they accepted General Studies on par with any other A-level in the offer.

Another interesting snippet is that they will 99% accept a candidate who drops one grade, as long as Newcastle was their Firm.

Borderline kids around the C or D mark looking at universities making points offers WOULD do well to do extras like GS, CT etc, but not if you're an A+ kid and the time taken doing the extra turns one of your As into a B.

A general rule of thumb is for an admissions tutor to first look at GCSE results, then teacher predictions, teacher reference and finally the personal statement.

75% of the personal statement should be about (passion for) the course and mentions of extracurriculars should tie into how this contributes to the overall package. Eg, grade 7 piano shows perseverance, DofE teamwork/service, Young Enterprise leadership, EPQ independent study, etc.