LSE v Durham, which one?

[ILoveApples]

Dd is looking to study History & International Relations at LSE and IR only at Durham. She has received the same offer for both (3As) and is having a real problem deciding which one to choose. To make matters harder she's has been allocated the beautiful University College (Castle) at Durham. She will be attending both offer holder open days in the next few weeks to hopefully have a better idea.
We live in the south east. Any thoughts? Thanks.

It will depend in part on what she may want to do with her degree.

LSE has a very very strong international reputation for IR. It really is considered one of the best places in the world. Durham obviously has very good "brand recognition" in the UK, though I am not sure where it stands for IR. Leaving aside all the other stuff, of which there is plenty, she should conside whether she is hoping for an international career or a UK based one.

Wow! Congratulations, great offers! Well in theory this should be an easy decision because they are SUCH different universities. The London uni experience is very sophisticated and independent as you whizz between different campuses and have to live out of halls in your second and third years and generally have to sort that out yourself. Whereas Durham is college-y and therefore a much more tight knit community and you live in college for (often) two of your three years. Obviously Durham is much smaller than London and much further away from the south east! Think about visits and drop offs and homesickness and things like that - I went to uni two hours away from where my parents live and they could easily pop up for the day. That was the perfect distance for me but I'm quite a home bird. Durham gets very cold (I know this sounds stupid but it is a factor for a southern girl!). London can be a lot more expensive. LSE can be very international and Durham can be very "rah". Both lots of positives and a few negatives depending on your personal preferences. She will have a gut feeling I inagine once she has been for a visit. X

I am not sure if ScottishDiblet is talking about the same place. LSE only has one campus, afaik. With a very good student centre, and excellent library. It is very compact so really not much whizzing around. (I was there for a talk two weeks ago, and doubt if you ever have to walk more than two blocks between anything.)

And yes, LSE is very international. Often a positive when studying IR!

Thanks for your reply Need. At the moment I don't think she's looking at the bigger picture. She loves the idea of the whole college/campus thing at Durham but also appreciates the reputation of LSE although she's heard that the social life at LSE can be a bit limited as there are so many very studious international students (not that British students don't study hard of course).
Also, living so near to London, it would be a bigger 'adventure' for her to go to a different part of the country. Decisions, decisions!

DS had an offer last year for Durham and he went on the overnight offer holder visit.

He got the impression that the college system was nothing like that of Cambridge in that it was more just halls of residence. At Cambridge the college plays a much bigger role and students live there throughout their degree. He was told he would only live in college for the first year and he met students in their second year who had had no connection with "their college" since the first year.
Do not under estimate the distances for travelling home. DS is 200 miles away (not in Durham he did not choose it) and a weekend home mid term means 8 hours of train travel or two 7 hour round trips if we pick him up.

I stand corrected! I think the travel between halls and the campus might be a factor to think about though, but I guess if that's the only thing she ever knows it won't be a big deal for her. My best friends were at Kings so I'm extrapolating a bit...

Thanks, Scottish. One of my concerns is the cost of travelling home as we'd have to fund it no doubt so she would not be able to come home as often as she would maybe like whereas from London, she'd be home in half an hour. Accommodation would also be about £300 cheaper (catered) in London too would you believe? I think it will also do her good to go out into the open market in her second and third year, learning how to pay bills, budgeting etc. instead of possibly being cocooned in halls.

I think also she prefers the LSE course but I know she'll fall in love with Durham when she visits.
As for the cold, yes that is another concern but I don't think she's even thought of that.
Luckily, she's got a bit of time to think about it.

LSE social life should be lots better since the opening of the Saw Swee Hock centre last year. Quite an amazing building right at the heart of the campus, and the Friday night student discos are picking up a reputation for being the best in town.

As well as a lot of Internationals LSE has a lot of post grads and the distinction is not as cut and dried as elsewhere. Especially in a small dept like IR.

In short is she primarily interested in a trad student experience in a lovely setting or a buzzy course in the centre of a world city. Both are great opportunities. The latter has the scope to be overwhelming. I think you need a certain amount of drive to get the most from LSE. But equally scope to be very rewarding.

LSE guarantees first year in hall unlike some other London Universities. Most halls are pretty close.

Interesting posts, thank you all v much. Dd is state educated in a non selective school and is not "posh" so would probably be a bit wary of some of the more traditional customs although, being quietly confident, I'm sure she will be able to hold her own.

LSE, with its greater proportion of international students would be more cosmopolitan and, being in London, I would think offer a
better chance of employment afterwards?

Ds is at LSE. My biggest worry was the fact that student room and other fora gave the distinct impression that there was no social life at all. Thankfully this has proved unfounded. Ds is driven and has been getting firsts and 2:1 for all his work to date (so I know he is studying). He has an amazing social life in his intercollegiate halls, in the pub over the road, with his course colleagues, his halls mates and at the See Saw Hock centre, and of course the talks and events are world class. He is happy, I am happy. The accommodation is eyewateringly expensive at gbp9600 pa. He will live out next year which may or may not cost the same, I have no idea but will certainly be more than 20 mins walk.
I would say intercollegiate halls are better to meet a wider variety of people as LSE undergrad pool is quite small for particular subjects including IR.

£800 a month is about right for living out and definitely further than 20 mins walk! I think LSE suits very focused, driven, high achieving people. Durham is a small city so very different but will have a more British feel to it. DD turned down Durham as she wanted Castle (she was a choral person) and didn't get it. She was very annoyed to be out at the park and ride hall, Van Mildert. Not her at all. I think she has to be honest about the type of person she is. Does she think she will thrive in a very multi cultural university or would she prefer a smaller city. I don't think post offer days will make much difference really. It's about the sort of person she is. I would look at the employment stats for each course. I bet LSE is best!

With those two offers I would choose LSE even though I loathed the place when I had post grad lectures there (superficial I grant you, but the décor was grim)(not sure where that accent came from, my computer's never done that before ), am not a London type, and completely love Durham. Incidentally, colleges are really halls of residence in Durham and Castle has some vile accommodation :) It goes against the grain, but there's a big disparity in those two offers, with LSE way out ahead.

If she is looking ahead at the job situation after graduating, then she should choose LSE.

Molio, the decor was even grimmer when I went there. It has smartened up unbelievably. I get the impression that LSE is very aware of their position in the international student market place and have invested a lot to improve the student experience.

They receive very little UK Govenment funding so live and die by maintaining their academic reputation and attracting affluent overseas students in. Hence huge recent investment in buildings.

LSE students tend to be very employment focussed. Our guide told us that though you are limited to two appointments with the careers service in your first term, he had managed to wangle four. Major employers regularly hold recruitment breakfasts, some involving interesting speakers, and obviously food. DS has invested £45 in a washable M&S suit as you need to be wearing a suit. (NPV of three years food is greater than £45?) DS appears to be working far harder than we expected him to do in his first year, but enjoying himself and there seems to be a lot of support available. (He says one or two of his friends at Oxbridge are pushed much harder, but I dont know whether this is because they have to do it all within 24 weeks rather than his 30.)

Ultimately though employability is an individual thing. Where will she thrive most and grow into an employable adult?

Like Isthiscorrect's son, my DS is very happy. He applied to Bristol, not Durham, but really had no interest in going there. For him course content was the priority. Perfectly legitimate though to prioritise the student experience, and choose Durham.

Not sure the milk round actually exists any more. My daughter is at Cambridge and they do get companies visiting and inviting students out for dinner. In fact many of them pretend to be interested in multiple careers such as banking, law, accountancy, engineering etc simply for the free meals. I know this happens at LSE and Imperial as well, but don't know at which other unis this happens. However when it comes to graduate jobs, all Applications are now online and the 1st stage is passing an online aptitude test. Next stage will be a number of phone interviews, then face to face interviews followed by whole day interviews and presentations. It is a gruelling process.

Off topic a bit, but internships during summer vacations seem to be the key to recruitment. Employers apparently increasingly use these as extended job interviews. Application deadlines were this term so, effectviely, job applications have started already.

I think the £45 M&S suit is going to get plenty of wear.

I went to Castle (University College, Durham). I bluddy loved it. An amazing 3 years in the most beautiful city. A long way from home, but easy on the train back to London.

I was state school for secondary and there were a lot of public school people. I liked the mix.

Amazing opportunities for employment - lots of professional careers but also a wide range of fashion designer, priest, archaeologist, foreign office.

V close nit college - spent 2 years living in college, not sure its still an option unless you are on the JCR. Went back to formal dinner during my second year as well. Excellent social life - if rather restricted. Most stuff happens in college.

Highly highly recommended. V well thought of university for recruiters - I do some recruitment in the city for professionals for our company.

Personlly I think students should go to unis where they cannot travel home mid-term. You are supposed to go for the whole term and your work is set as such - you won't get a break from your lecturers because you didn't get the tutorial work done because you went home for the weekend. Not being able to bolt back home easily means you have to build self-reliance.

As to the question in hand: she should go where she feels comfortable. LSE has a higher international reputation but to get anywhere in IR, she'll probably have to do a masters as well, and Durham will certainly not count against her in getting onto a masters. What is more important is where she'll feel happiest as that's where she'll work best.

All of the top unis (which includes both LSE and Durham) have regular career and recruitment fairs. Employability is very important to all universities.

And I write this as an academic librarian at a Russell Group university and I used to be both a librarian and senior Hall warden at a 94 group uni, plus daughter and wife of lecturers. Universities have been my life, not that I'm institutionalised, honest.

She needs to think more about the experience of living in London versus that of living in Durham. If she would prefer being in a small town and being within walking distance of everything she should go for Durham. If she fancies the big city experience she should go to London. There is little point, in this situation, going somewhere you won't enjoy.

Durham is only 15 mins on the train from Newcastle. My DS went partying in Newcastle two or three times a term. Brilliant nightlife.

If your DD is likely to end up in London after university there is an argument for discovering another part of the country first. I'm happy that my DS has an abiding affection for the NE. He's now happy in London.

I went to a top northern uni ages ago for undergrad and then (quite recently - 4 years ago) did a masters in a similar subject to IR at LSE. In between I've recruited and interviewed hundreds of people in the kind of orgs that hooverr up dozens of grads each year from IR/PPE/Economics degrees at the top uni's.

I would advise a daughter of mine to go for Durham (if she likes it) for undergrad and LSE for postgrad. For loads of reasons but primarily

1. Durham is lovely university, I think more 'integrated' and a more old-fashioned typical uni experience. LSE more like a sixth form college in feel - plenty to do but there will be people on your course who you never have any jinterraction with outside of lectures.
2. both rate highly for employability at grad level so no need to seek out LSE on those grounds. The LSE impact is much more prevalent at postgrad level
3. I think its important to not be close to home. I was 250 miles from my home and couldn't get home term-time. It forced me to become 'me' rather than still be someone's daughter.
4. I personally feel that there is no way I would have properly appreciated the benefits of LSE experience at the age of 18. The average age of students is much higher and the diversity and cultural mix is breathtaking, but I think you need to do a bit of growing up first to truly appreciate the benefits this brings At undergrad level i was mostly partying didn't really make an effort to mix with those outside of my broad social circle and am not sure i would have done had I been an undergrad at LSE
5. I'd personal feel more relaxed about a DD in Durham, and would also imagine that finances would go much further there.
6. until I moved away from south east I never really 'got' how appalingly London-centric everything is, and moving to the North was a huge learning experience that I loved. I found it very hard to tear myself away.

If your DD is adamant that she won't want to do postgrad of any kind, I'd be more torn, because the LSE experience is awesome because of the mix of people. Learning about Chinese work ethics by chatting over lunch with a couple of guys from China taught me more in one hour than I ever read in a book, and made me far more empathetic, and i honestly feel that no other uni in the Uk could replicate that type of experience.