IB Mathematical studies for medicine, possibly Oxbridge? Any tutors for admissions out there who could offer advice, please?

[Shhhhhhhh]

My son's sixth form options application has to be in this week and his maths teacher (and head of sixth form) has just dropped a bit of a bombshell - he's advised my DS that some universities won't accept IB mathematical studies for medicine, contrary to the advice the careers counsellor gave him at the open evening last term.

I've had a quick search on the internet, Oxford do accept it, it isn't entirely clear whether Cambridge do. He hasn't really thought about where he wants to go to university other than possibly Oxbridge (because his school have told him he has Oxbridge potential) - we didn't really think of planning that far ahead!

I guess I am also wondering whether, even if a university accepts it, do they have a preference for maths over mathematical studies?

His reasoning for doing mathematical studies rather than standard level maths is that he doesn't really enjoy maths and he thinks he can maximise his IB points by doing a subject that he can score an easy 7 in.

I am also wondering whether his deliberately choosing the easy (for him) to boost his score option might count against him too, as he is predicted an A hat at GCSE?

His other options are:

Higher Level: chemistry, biology, history

(the school has suggested doing philosophy but he doesn't really enjoy the subject)

Standard Level: mathematical studies, English literature, French (ab initio)

(DS is considering continuing with Spanish as an alternative to starting French from scratch)

Is there anyone out there with any advice? I would tell him to email any medical schools he is interested in but I doubt he will get a reply in time for the application deadline.

Thank you!

I disagree strongly re the advice given against Biology. If he's thinking of Oxford, perhaps read what the med school says about the need for Biology - it's very clear. My DS took Chemistry, Biology, Physics, History. He says the maths component for Medicine at Oxford is very do-able if you're reasonably competent at maths but no need for an actual A level. He got a first in both his first and second year exams so lack of maths clearly doesn't hold students back, either in terms of admissions or in terms of progress once on the course. Perhaps just drop it altogether!

Molio Just looked at the oxford online prospecus and it says chemistry plus one of biology/maths/physics.
You are always going on Oxbridge threads as though you know the far end of everything about every course, when you have a DC on one course at one University and you don't even know the entry requirements for that!!

MayPolist I'll check the Pre-Clinical website again but last time I looked (entry 2015) it said biology wasn't absolutely mandatory but that any student not having biology would find it very difficult in practice to keep up in the first year. It was that explicit. Not much reading between the lines needed there. And best of luck to anyone attempting a medicine interview there without biology at A2. I think the OP is interested in what actually helps secure a place on the course, as opposed to what is an absolute showstopper from the start and what isn't. On the whole it's fair to say that Oxford doesn't like ruling out - it keeps its options open as far as it can across all subjects in case a completely exceptional applicant rolls up. Other universities are far more staid.

As for your rather dickish outburst, I'd be very happy for you to re-post anything I've ever said on any thread which even remotely implies that I know the far end of everything about every course, since I'd be the first to confirm that I don't. I certainly know very little about the current state of admissions at Cambridge as opposed to Oxford because the fact that I got a place there once in the dark ages gives me no expertise whatsoever other than it must have been dead easy to get an offer back then :) I happen to know a good deal about the admissions process at Oxford and much of that has nothing to do with the fact that I've had six DC securing offers there in the past eight years, although naturally that helps.

MayPolist the website is formatted slightly differently this year but as I suspected it states that 96% of those applying in 2014 for 2015 entry had biology and 98% of those shortlisted for interview had biology. That compares to 26% for physics and 89% for maths. And on each and every occasion that it's stated that biology isn't mandatory it also adds that absence of biology is likely to cause difficulties at an early stage in the course (ie tutors will be wary!). As I say, good luck to anyone following your advice and winging it without biology - they'll have to be frankly mega to be in the 2% of those not doing biology who are shortlisted for interview, and the interviews aren't a complete breeze....

And to add to what Molio said, surely it's common sense that someone wanting to study medicine would love Biology anyway so would choose it for A levels?

Yes Decorhate and for that reason alone I'd expect the interviewing tutors to dig fairly deep at interview. But there were only eight or nine applicants in that position across twenty eight to thirty colleges, which puts it into perspective. The statistics show very clearly exactly what you said, that chemistry, biology and maths is by far the most common combination, with physics trailing a long way behind.

the OP's child made their choices long ago. I hope they did not rely on the advice here, which was bigger rubbish than is usually posted about medicine.

Maths of any sort above GCSE is not an essential for medicine. Biology is not essential but not having it restricts choices considerably. Physics may help a bit with radiology. Any language, including English, helps if you want to look at medical school in Malta.

Sensible medicine applicants take A level or higher level Chemistry and Biology and whatever else they will do well in. They research med schools on the Student Room website and then check with admision tutors at open days or by email. Cambridge tutors, in my child's experience, respond quickly to queries but dont ask central admin staff anything unusual. Cambridge colleges vary a bit in what they like from applicants.

The Cambridge shadowing scheme is excllent for pupils whose schools have little experience of Cambridge applications. www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/

I'm a parent of a second year Cambridge medic, willing to answer pms about Cambridge but dont expect a quick reponse.

The advice here from Queenie, Decorhate, myself and now alreadytaken is very sound though (unsurprising, since Queenie's DS is a Cambridge offeree, Decorhate's DD is an Oxford offeree, alreadytaken's DC is a Cambridge second year and my DS is an Oxford third year). Thus, Chemistry and Biology are pretty essential even if they're not legal requirements and Maths is very common, but the degree is manageable without it - though for those with only GCSE a bit of extra graft might be required. It's also worth doing exactly what alreadytaken recommends and do the preliminary research properly - Oxford and Cambridge are different.

Don't forget that the previous advice about maths was given in the context of IB where maths is compulsory. Also the OP said her DS was capable of standard level Maths (equivalent to AS) but was taking the easier option of Maths Studies. I think most would agree that if maths is compulsory the DC should choose an option where they can progress rather than stay at GCSE level (Maths Studies) particularly as Maths is useful in medicine for those who have any potential future interest in research and clinical studies.

This is likely to be reasonably accurate www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Medical_School_IB_Requirements

and no medical school requires maths at higher level while some do require Biology. Some medical schools do not mention any maths requirement and others refer to GCSE. I would not trust any statement from a school about not accepting mathematical studies without checking this with individual admission tutors. Since maths above GCSE is not a requirement for A level candidates requiring more than that from IB students would be odd.

Fair enough to say that if the boy is capable of standard level maths it may help his application and/ or that it may help him a bit with the course but anything more needs to be checked direct with the medical schools. This sort of thing can change from one year to the next - and has done so in the past. Those with children in medical school may still not have the up-to-date position, especially for the IB.

The higher levels should be Chemistry, Biology and one at which they can get 7 points. Many medical applicants are good at Maths so would chose to do it at HL for that reason but if a student is more likely to get 7 in something else they should do that instead.

If I'd seen this back in February I would have pointed out the advantage of Spanish over French when looking at electives.

As far as Oxford goes, having looked at the website on MayPolist's prompt, nothing whatever has changed in the past three years except the calculation concerning GCSEs as part of the shortlisting formula. I agree that students should be very careful to check current requirements but if you're saying these may change from year to year and students are selecting options in Y11 then in a sense they're stuffed. Not much changes radically even with medical advances so my advice would be to play safe. It will be hard to go wrong with Chemistry, Biology and Maths or Physics for the foreseeable future I'd have thought. A student can always have a frolic with other subjects beyond those three if they want. I'd also sound a note of caution re TSR - as with MN, not all the advice is good and a reader needs to judge the source as far as they can. My own DC are pretty wary of TSR.

Since maths above GCSE is not a requirement for A level candidates requiring more than that from IB students would be odd.
This comment illustrates the 'grey area' of admissions that people find hard to understand.

With regards judging relative academic capability, particularly for research strong institutions, the choice of IB Maths Studies either demonstrates poor mathematical ability or taking the 'less work' option. This could be deemed a 'grey' relative negative against the candidate (not forgetting that this depends on the slant of the admissions team).
That is different to an A level candidate who actively chooses to do another subject but may have the academic ability to do maths and therefore pick up the extra that is needed during the course with relative ease.
However admissions criteria have to be flexible enough outside the core subjects that are deemed essential (ie chemistry and for most biology)so as not to exclude a student who may be weak in maths but has other qualities that demonstrate the potential to be an excellent candidate (for a profession that is strengthened by variety).

IB family here. The people at DS's school who did maths studies were those who found maths very difficult - none of them were natural scientists although some of them got 43/44 IB points. Your son needs to do the standard level at least to be taken seriously for medicine anywhere.

I was sufficiently intrigued by this to actually check a few medical schools. One (Birmingham) explicity stated on their website that mathematical studies is acceptable. However having gone today to find the link I discover that they are revising the IB requirement for 2016. www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/requirements/index.aspx
in recognition that it didnt match standards for A level candidates. Couldnt find the page I saw a day or two ago.

There were a couple of others that explicity state mathematical studies is not acceptable (Kings, Cambridge and a Scottish one) while I also found this from 2013 stating that several medical schools would accept mathematical studies www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2452628 in the IB.

I think this demonstrates well enough both that requirements can and do change (not usually at all med schools but yes, if you have your heart set on one particular one you may be stuffed) and that actually checking with medical schools direct may produce different information to that provided by school staff. Of course the TSR website may not be reliable but in general students do post either what they have discovered at open days and in talking to or emailing admission staff. Always best to have your own written response from admission staff.

Decided to ask my second year Cambridge student what A levels they thought were most useful for the actual course - the response was that none were that relevant but Biology was the most use. You didn't need maths beyond GSCE.

Alreadytaken, essentially a question. I am certainly no expert. I wonder if it is not so much having been taught maths (or indeed chemistry etc) beyond GCSE that counts, but that you have to have sufficient sufficient apptitude to take these subjects beyond GCSE. So an A level is desired not so much for the knowledge you will have acquired but as evidence that you can work at that level.

I assume medical schools, like other sought after departments, will see super-hard-working and dilligent students who are effectively maxed out by the time they finish A levels, and who despite fantastic grades, struggle in their first year. I assume medical schools are trying to identfy candidates, who regardless of their current knowledge base, will thrive. Maths at A level will presumably provide reassurance that they can crunch numbers. Biology at A level will presumably provide some reassurance that they are interested in that type of thing. Ditto chemistry, which some pupils can find difficult when they step up to A level. Or evidence that students can cope with a heavy work load by showing they have done more than the three straight A levels. And which may explain why some Medical schools seem to like odd things like a non science A level, A* in English GCSE, 4 A levels (Royal London if the Student Room is to be believed), or a bunch of community/voluntary work.

If I were OP I think I would be encouraging my child to take standard maths because:

1. it provides evidence that he is a competent mathematician, or rather not doing it might provoke concern that he is not
2. it shows that he is not afraid of hard work, or again settling for something easier might provike concern that he is unhappy with tough workloads.
3. it increases the range of medical schools he can apply to, or as importantly gives more flexibility so he can then choose the schools where he has comparative advantage.

I note the Irish system allocates additional points for maths at A level or equivalent. Presumably to encourage people to take maths at a higher level.

People also need to think what they're going to do if they're turned down for medicine. Not having A Level standard maths substantially reduces the options for non-medicine courses.

found the Birmingham link after all www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/med/medicine.aspx?OpenSection=EntryRequirements

so they accepted maths studies this year. Also noticed that they are starting to use the UKCAT.

needmoresleep I only came back to the thread because I found the link - the OP's child made their decision long ago. If they didn't take standard level maths they will still find med schools that will consider them.

Needmoresleep writes sense.

Anyone got any info about how many successful medical students are accepted on the basis of meeting the minimum criteria? That's why I would venture caution because I suspect it's diddly squat.

BeaufortBelle, again I don't know but suspect/hope that it is more than you think. However I assume that these will mainly be either contextualised students, eg ones from poor performing schools, deprived postcodes, or perhaps ones who have changed their minds so didn't make the right choices in the first place. There is quite a variety of what different medical schools accept.

alreadytaken, I realised. I am the mum of a prospective medical applicant and have really appreciated the knowledge/experience you, Molio and others have shared. DD is dyslexic and has quite slow processing speeds, and so her GCSEs are more of a mixed bag than some of her peers. She also has some significant strengths. Medicine is so competitive so we are assuming that the best approach is to maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses and then consider courses carefully, looking for ones where not only is there a good fit in terms of entrance criteria, but where the course and type of learning will suit.

In short I thought OP's question and the subsequent discussion was wrong. Its not about who will accept a student with mathematical studies, but whether this limits your choice of courses, and whether it means another applicant with the same profile, but with standard maths, might get the place ahead of you.

And Gemauve makes a good point. Lots of good sciency type courses as well as economics and law, are also very very competitive. I think the general rule with maths is if you can do it, you should (but don't if you can't) as it keeps more doors open.