London universities overtaking Oxbridge and north left in dust

[BrendaBlackhead]

story here today:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30521423

Out in the sticks dcs are all dooooomed: ordinary pupil cannot afford to have a good London university experience due to having to live 20 miles out in a shed, so it'll be all rich overseas students and those lucky enough to have parental homes there that will triumph.

Another advocate for London here, and for truly global university experiences, both from recent personal experience as well as my DDs.

My DD had a bit of a shock coming up against the bright people on her course from different backgrounds, be it UK or overseas but she has really enjoyed the challenge it brings to the course. Of course there are the stereotypes, the Asian students asleep over their books in the library etc but the reality is she has made friends from all over the world, and gained skills in working with them that she will use in her working life because she has no intention that it will be confined to the UK.

And actually my DD oop North is having a similar experience. Let's not forget our private and higher education sectors would look very different without the fees paid by overseas students.

Brenda overseas students at competitive universities have to pass a demanding test of their English skills. I have never known an overseas student whose English was not adequate to hold a discussion. Some students come from an educational background where they have not been encouraged to discuss and question, once again not necessarily just those from overseas, but then it is for the staff to challenge them and make it clear what is expected. Some of the students I found most frustrating to have to sit in seminars with, because they never contributed a word, were British. Indeed it is precisely that experience of a western liberal education that encourages you to debate and question and be creative with your ideas that attracts overseas students because those skills do give them a competitive edge over those who have come through their home systems. It is a repetitive refrain amongst educational reformers in Asia etc that they need to adapt their own systems to compete, but having said that, they aren't doing too badly are they???

Molio a university decision is one you make taking into account all sorts of factors.

If a student likes a London course then it would be sad if they were put off because they were under the misapprehension that students from poorer backgrounds cannot have a good university experience there, because it simply is not true, and they need only go on student room or talk to existing students to research the true situation. Nor are they cut off from
making the most of London life. One of the benefits for DD has been being dragged into new worlds, of music, of drama, by friends persuing those interests and talents, who have many more opportunities open to them in London. My other DD finds being in a provincial town with one theatre and little racial diversity quite stifling, but then for her the decision was 90% about the course.

At UCL DD has had a far more diverse group of friends than her friends at universities outside London. There are as Needmore highlighted a lot fewer of the exclusive private school cliques that tend to gravitate to certain universities outside London, and foster a, shall we say, certain culture, and it is a lot easier to get away from that culture. Although she may have fewer acquaintances than those who went to Bristol, Nottingham, Exeter, she actually has a wider and more inclusive group of friends who are from all sorts of backgrounds, and they have a more diverse social life. It has certainly been a different uni experience but no worse for that.

A lot of DDs friends, now graduated, are moving to London and of course coping with life in the big city and the cost of accommodation is a shock, but it is one her London university friends are habituated to coping with. Indeed one of her friends from an underperforming comp oop North has talked his way into a management job within one of the bastions of the priviledged establishment. I wonder if he would have had the chutzpah to do that if he had not been wheeler dealering his way through London life for the past three years.....

On the issue of the English language test - I used to work in a university and one of my jobs was doing the first sift through our MSc applications. I'm afraid passing the IELTS or similar English language tests at the minimum required level to get a visa is definitely not enough to guarantee that your English is good enough to make sense of the lectures and to hold a conversation. I'm sure it improves very, very fast perforce on arrival in the UK but my university had a minimum level well above the visa minimum and we still had students who struggled.

That's assuming, of course, that the student took the test personally and didn't send in a substitute. IELTS includes a photo of the person who took the test on their results notices to help prevent this but I'd be amazed if there isn't some cheating.

I have a friend who worked in the mental health system with a Chinese student who'd been accepted to study at a university which, umm, doesn't tend to feature at the top end of the league tables. He had a complete breakdown because he simply could not cope with his studies because his English was very poor. There had clearly been some jiggery pokery going on for him to get a visa and an offer of a place.

IELTS is, IME, pretty rigorous about identification. I'm not sure how anyone could cheat.

However, any single score under 7.5 is going to mean a student struggles initially at university UG level. IMO universities are not demanding enough in their IELTS grades.

I would agree, Bonsoir. We looked for 7.0 overall and no single score under 6 or 6.5 (I think) and even so we had applicants who flunked the interview (mercifully, so as to avoid wasting everybody's time and money by starting the MSc) because they could barely understand the questions.

There is no such thing as an international student. Students come from hundreds of different countries with different backgrounds and attitudes to learning. A Korean student who has competed against 1,400 others for a place in medical school will have completely different strengths and weaknesses than a Greek PG who has selected this MBA course because it is the only one without a maths entry requirements.

As for English language skills, plenty of British students are desperate for help in really basic writing skills, so again generalisations are at best counterproductive, at worst silly.

IELTS score requirements seem to be going up, at least for the more competitive UG courses.

She said that the number of foreign students was, frankly, ruining the tutorial experience. They spoke poor English and could not engage in discussion

She sounds like she knows little about language acquisition. One's "passive comprehension" in an additional (ie non-Muttersprache) language is always greater than one's ability to speak it for at least the first 6 months to a year.

And can I requite the wonderful reminder above: the singular of data is not anecdote.

I'm sure my DSS1 was one of those dreadful non-English speakers in his first year. He used to email me his essays to proofread (a major task...) in his first semester.

None of which prevented him coming top of his year in his first year exams!

Could that be a New Year Resolution?

Back though to the origional post. Selective London Universities seem to be in the lead in developing a business model which compensates for the lack of state funding by bringing in research money and fees from foreign students. To survive they have to offer a top flight educational experience. This seems to be resulting in a leaning towards more vocationally orientated degrees, and an increasingly international student body. Taking the statistics quoted at face value, they seem to be succeeding.

However does this help British students? Yes if those students relish the chance of studying in a very international environment, and can cope with different study approaches. Yes if British students are able to meet entry requirements for what are often very technical degrees. Yes if students see living in a world city as a positive experience.

If in contrast British students in the main are looking for a more traditional student experience, including a greater slant towards humanities and MFL, campus or college living, and a peer group with relatively similar backgrounds enjoying the same experience of new independence, we may be heading for a curious divide. Institutions in the Capital which are essentially pseudo-private top flight international vocational colleges, and more trad provision elsewhere.

Obviously it is not a strict split and the numbers of o'seas students at other Universities, particuarly for quasi vocational subjects, is growing, not least because all Universities are driven by the need to balance their books. However in an increasingly tought and international employment market, there are good reasons why students might consider study in London as an option.

On English Language, if students don't pick it up quickly, they won't pass their first year in a highly selective institution keen to protect its image. And as observed earlier, different cultural approaches to learning seems to have the positive effect of encouraging other students to work harder.

Often, at better universities, the problem for foreign students (e.g. Chinese rather than French or American) is that the culture of teaching in their own countries hasn't allowed them to discuss/debate. Together with language difficulties it makes it difficult for them to fully engage. They may be fine doing the Maths but they haven't learnt to think for themselves. DH finds this a problem as his work sector depends more and more on recruits from the Far East. Eventually they are fine, but it may take longer than a 1 year MSc course.
BTW DSs university where they have done/are doing their MScs was 8th in the research exercise (their department was 6th) should I be worried as they are outside London?

Now that Lilymaid has been my experience as well. I have seen a lot of Greek students struggle to adjust at PG level in the humanities because they were used to summarising, collating information, and generally reproducing ideas rather than being critical and producing original thinking. I have also seen an alarming trend in one Uni medical school of accepting exceptionally bright Asian students in the third year of med school but doing nothing to support them and help them with the differences in curriculum. So while their science knowledge was excellent, their exposure to ethics, communication skills and research project was non existent - they had never come across either the ideas or the style of teaching. Sadly they would be abandoned to their own devices to sink or swim and they would usually sink.

I am not talking about European students. I met some Dutch students recently. Their English was mind-bogglingly good - in fact I'd reckon it was probably better than a fair few of the English students on the course.

Dh's niece was referring to Chinese students. She said that actually quite a few of the students were thinking of making a formal complaint (re the tutorial aspect) but cheque books speak louder than student grumbles I would have thought.

Dh's niece was referring to Chinese students

My point still stands. I've taught Chinese students at MA level who start the year appearing to have little understanding, but they've developed to have cracking ideas and drive. And a surprising passive comprehension.

Your DN and her peers sound pretty intolerant, TBH.

My experience is also mainly of Chinese students. The Chinese Education system as Prof Michel Hockx highlights here (note one of our foremost academics specialising in China is Dutch and isn't a native English speaker either) "has an enormous emphasis on rote learning, classes can spend ludicrous amounts of time repeating the same things again and again, it often doesn't value creativity.........I personally know 13 and 14-year-olds in China who do not get more than four or five hours of sleep a day because of all the work that they need to do. I think many parents are worried because they're not seeing it as a way of moving up in the world," edition.cnn.com/2014/11/21/world/asia/china-private-education/ which rather gives the lie to PISA rankings and a bunch of hoodwinked western educationalists from the OECD

Is it really surprising then that students educated in the Chinese system find it hard when asked to come up with original thought and ideas for the first time in their education, regardless of language issues? In my experience, as with upthechimmneys , once it is made clear what is expected they do pretty quickly step up to the plate. I just wonder how many academic staff avoid that challenge for fear of being culturally insensitive, or worse cling to the same stereotypes as Brenda \Brenda's DHs niece and just don't make that effort. Maybe it is actually the Chinese students being shortchanged? especially thrown into an environment where fellow students seem very eager to stereotype and write them off.....

DD has a Chinese boy in her flat, but he doesn't behave according to stereotype and stay in his room playing computer games and working, only appearing in the kitchen with other Mandarin speakers to cook Chinese food. DD who spent her early years in an International School and would not think to do otherwise made sure they included him in their activities, and turns out he is lovely, his English improves by the day and he will be living with them next year. I am sure they have all learnt something......

This is only anecdote, but I had a student from China this year whose spoken English seemed very poor (partly through nerves), but who was able to understand medieval English to the extent that she could explain to me in detail how certain tropes were also present in Chinese folk tales - which, frankly, blew me away.

I accept that students studying in foreign countries need to reach a minimum standard, and if they don't, they can really make life tough for their coursemates. But, I think students can be quite unforgiving and insular, too.

When I was doing my teaching practice, we were put into groups and asked to prepare a lesson targeted at the other students in the room, whose subjects ranged across arts, sciences and humanities and who came from several countries. My group was the history group, and we were to prepare a lesson on the Black Death. One girl insisted that everyone would know what that term meant, and thought we should not bother to say what historical period we were talking about. I pointed out that there were students from the US, from the Middle East, from India and from China, who would have good reason not to know, and she smirked and said that even in China and India, 'of course', they study the Black Death in England.

Of course, they didn't, and of course, she looked extremely silly when she tried out her theory. I have also come across people who are shocked that non-UK students are unaware of the significance of 1066. This is extreme, but often, students who think other non-UK students are shockingly ignorant, are actually showing up their own areas of ignorance.

The limitations of rote learning systems apply equally to Greek students and to an extent to French students. British education has attracted international students for centuries and its success has always included knowing how to mould foreign students to the British way of doing things. It's neither a new problem nor an insurmountable one and the benefits are the opportunity to influence young people from the world's superpower and I still in them British values and a British approach to life.

Rote learning systems and Greek students? In my experience Greek students in maths and physical sciences are way ahead of British students in knowledge, understanding and original thinking. Greeks punch way above their weight in these areas, from undergraduate level onwards.

And in my areas Asian students, while indeed they are often negatively affected by their school culture and indeed their spoken English may not be terrific, have incredible work ethic and outperform many British students. They work had to pick up the skills they are missing, whereas many British students try to coast through as they did at school.

Booboostoo - rote learning is not some sort of blanket feature of French education. The biggest issue I have with the French bac is the pack of shit called philosophy which purports to teach DC to think critically but does nothing of the sort. Maths, however, requires a lot more creative thinking at Bac S spe maths than does A-level Maths and further maths. Lots of A-levels require mostly rote learning.

booboostoo "instill in them British values and a British approach to life" Are you serious?

So if you went to China and spent time in a Chinese university do you think you would come away "instilled" as in "gradually but firmly establish an idea or attitude in someone's mind", with Chinese values and the Chinese approach to life, or do you think that is not a valid comparison because British values and the British approach to life are self evidently superior and righteous?

You are unlikely to find many academics in the UK, whatever the subject they teach who would be seeking to instil any such thing

At Tiananmen students died because they wanted their leaders to consider new ideas, all sorts of new ideas, not just western ones. Contrary to the version peddled by the western press it wasn't about just about democracy, that was just one idea being debated in the square. Chinese students who study in the west gain a better understanding of western culture and ideas, just as British students who study in China, or with Chinese students in the UK if they bother to engage gain a better understanding of Chinese culture and ideas (including the world's most pervasive non religious ideology, Confucianism), and can then see beyond the stereotypes. It is that better mutual understanding that will benefit us all as we navigate and negotiate with the world's changing power structures and deal with the issues we face.

”British education has attracted international students for centuries and its success has always included knowing how to mould foreign students to the British way of doing things. . . and the benefits are the opportunity to influence young people from the world's superpower and I still in them British values and a British approach to life.”

Oh really?

If you cared to calm down a bit and look hard around you, you’ll see that Chinese education and culture (not to mention inventions) were already well established when the British were still barbarians running around in loincloth.

And world superpower?

OK people:

1. My experience of the Greek educational system is first hand. There is a nationally approved curriculum which dictates which and only which books may be taught. All exams are on these books, and this includes subjects like maths. Rote learning is key to the approach which students even learning off by heart original composition topics that are likely to come up in Uni entrance exams. And if you think this only applies to the Humanities, think again. More than once Uni entrance exams have had to accept as correct incorrect answers to maths problems as the incorrect answer was a typo in the national curriculum book. I have also taught quite a few Greek PGs who had spent their UG degrees copying down lecture notes and struggled with original and critical thinking.

1. 'To an extent' does not mean 'blanket feature', it means to some degree, for some part.

1. I was referring specifically to academic values, such as original and critical thinking, as opposed to learning by rota and repetition of authority claims - I feel that was extremely clear in the context, unless you are looking to be Insulted of Ingestree rather than engage in discussion.

1. The existence of one cultural norm and its transmission via education implies neither that it is the only one in existence, nor that it is the oldest one, nor that it is the most valuable one. Again see Insulted of Ingestree above.

1. China has now overtaken the US as the world's superpower, this is a well used term to refer to economic dominance which is usually followed by cultural influence. It's hardly contentious. See for example:

www.cnbc.com/id/100895252 Should you wish to object to the use of the term feel free to e-mail the site directly.

I suspect a significant minority, at least, are coming to London not for a "British" education but:

1. an English language education
2. to attend a world ranked institution
3. because it is more accessible (student loans for EU students, cheaper eg a 3 year and more specialised degree than the US, and a less complicated admissions procedure)
4. the chance to leave your home coutry and live in an International city.

The fact Universities like Imperial are in the UK is really neither here nor there.

There will be good and bad about each educatinal system. Certainly few would argue that the British system is perfect and producing oven ready Under Graduates.

An international student body coupled with academic and research staff from all over the world has the scope to create a genuinely interesting and creative learning environment. Perhaps why London Universities have done so well on this particular measure.

A great chance for British students, but perhaps only if they are willing to reach out and get to know their peers.....rather than complain. Who knows, some of them are almost certain to end up working for Chinese owned companies.

British universities are attractive to other nationalities in large part because once you are admitted you are almost certain to graduate three years later. British UG degree courses are one of the least risky HE options out there.

Re Greek education, I have first hand experience and knowledge too. Do you really think UK A level maths is so superior, when students get top grades through practising years of past papers and few original questions are asked? Do you think A level maths students actually understand basic concepts in calculus? Do you have evidence that Greek students do worse than UK students in benchmark maths tests set for undergraduates in maths when they enter? (I have direct evidence showing the contrary but one could argue that it is often the better students who leave their country for UG study.)

The Greek school system has many problems, which are getting worse due to the financial crisis. The UG education system in Greece is also deteriorating quite rapidly, not least due to the hiring freeze. However Greeks value education immensely and it is hard to argue that Greeks are inherently poorly prepared for university study in maths and sciences, when they do so well at it.