Engineering - is Further Maths essential?

[MEgirl]

I've looked at the admission criteria for various unis and so far have only come across Maths and Physics A levels being necessary. Do those who have Futher Maths A levels have any advantage over those that don't?

^I've just looked up the MEng entry requirements at Oxford and they DONT insist on FM. That's nice and inclusive of them

Standard offer
Should you be successful in your interview, you will be offered a place conditional on your final exam results.

The standard offer means you will be required to achieve A AA with the A in one of Mathematics, Further Mathematics (if taken) and Physics. For the IB you will need 7 at the Higher Level in Mathematics and Physics and at least a 6 in one other HL subject, combined with 38-40 points including the core.

I guess the Oxfords Physics Apptitude test (which the Engineering applicants have to sit) would weedle out any candidates with anything less than super exceptional maths skills.

DD is doing an MEng in mechanical engineering at a RG university. She didn't do FM and is doing fine in year 2. She had five offers for MEng. I find some posters on MN like to scaremonger a bit about what qualifications are necessary for university. If in doubt the student can contact the admissions department of the university and ask them directly.

Strathclyde don't give top 5 A levels presumably because most students do highers and advanced highers instead www.whatuni.com/degrees/courses/Degree-details/Mechanical-Engineering-with-international-study-MEng-Hons-course-details/54948458/3763/cdetail.html

Scottish universities are different because the programmes are a year longer, so first year maths will overlap significantly with A-level maths and further maths. Further maths A-level is not needed therefore (unless you are looking at direct entry to 2nd year where it would be useful).

The advice my DD (who wants to do electronic engineering) has had is very much along the lines of the second post in this thread. (unweavedrainbow) She's planning on Maths, FM, physics and DT Systems and Control (if there's enough to run it) otherwise she'll have to do Comp. Sci or Chemistry.

Problem is if you do maths/physics/further maths you miss out on doing chemistry
Not if you do maths/FM/physics and chemistry ... most people who do FM will do 4 A levels and those have overlap. I read on another thread that some places (I think for physics courses not eng) don't like to include FM in the offer.

DH and I were quite surprised when we looked at the A level maths/FM syllabuses - whereas back in our day when he did single maths A level and I did double, he had covered something of everything just not so much of it, the single maths now seems to totally miss out some topics which seem pretty basic for STEM degrees - imaginary numbers to take an obvious example.

This is all very enlightening. Back in the day (20 odd years ago) all I needed to get onto my BEng Mech Eng degree was a pulse. (but then I went to Teesside and they were desperate to get women on the course) I don't recall there being a further maths option back then. (apart from at GCSE level)

I don't recall there being a further maths option back then.
Some boards did Maths and Further Maths; others did either single Pure and Applied Maths or 2 separate Pure Maths and Applied Maths (which afaik were never taken other than as a pair).

A lot of the variation people have experienced is not contradictory.

I've encountered this at decade-intervals, as family/friends have gone through it.

In the A-level system, maths has for decades been taken in a selection of papers which can combine to make a Pure Maths and an Applied Maths A-level, or a Maths and a Further Maths A-levels. A-levels being 2 years and bachelor degrees usually 3 years.

So someone with only one maths A-level may have done Pure Maths or Maths, and taken a slightly different combination of papers. Which may explain Errol's DH's experience.

In the Scottish system, Highers are 1 year and degrees typically 4 years. So it's inevitable that school will cover a smaller part of the maths syllabus and university will cover more. (Advanced Highers are since my time, presumably to fill the gap Scottish students otherwise experienced between Highers and E&W university entry).

There were definitely Further Maths A-levels around 20 years ago, so Lynnie it may well simply be that your school didn't offer it.

x-post.

Yes, though it's not just the difference between exam boards. The ones I've seen one could mix and match papers within exam boards.

In fact, I seem to remember with one board you could sit all the double maths papers and they would make up the best A-level for you out of them. It came up for a student whose Sixth Form had been badly disrupted and who'd lost out on much of the later teaching. He was still in for a chance of double maths, but didn't want it to compromise his chance of getting at least one maths A-level. The board said no worries, if he ploughs the later papers but still has good grades in the core papers, he'll get one good pass and a dire fail, rather than two high fails.

You could take an A Level in Applied Maths 40+ years ago. Budding engineers, physicists and mathematicians took it at my school. What is important for current students is being capable of learning and doing the Maths on the degree course rather than having Further Maths A2 (which isn't offered at many schools).

As many schools don't encourage 4 A level subjects DS chose not to do further maths as it narrowed his options for many uni courses. He got five offers for MEng, and had no problem learning the extra topics as it was taught well and relevant to engineering.

What's Physics A? Presumably no one is doing Physics and Physics A? If those were amalgamated, wonder what the 6th subject would turn out to be?

Not essential but Maths Maths and more Maths made it easier in my day. Those without struggled with the more detailed subjects. But it depends where the students interests lie, those with more 'technology' bias in their A level subjects tended to follow that bias through their university and subsequent career, those with Further Maths ended up in Banking!! Sweeping generalisation!!!!

As a rule of thumb I would always recommend that prospective Engineering students (in Chemical Engineering, which I teach but in all the other disciplines as well) take as much maths as they can. So I would always recommend further maths, if available, and always advanced higher maths for Scottish students, even if they are coming to us on the basis of their Higher maths grade. The more mastery you have of maths when you come to us the easier everything will be. Having said that, if they come with the minimum (A at Higher, B at A-level Maths) they will be capable of succeeding, its just that it will be harder work. Engineering is the application of maths and common sense to solve practical problems, in my opinion.

Ds got a lower offer from Bristol last year for having further maths

If your school doesn't offer it, it doesn't offer it, lots of schools don't.

But if it does, you should take the opportunity - it will give you an advantage, and possibly it will make you look more committed and serious about pursuing the subject at higher level.

And you won't risk being asked about it in an interview and having to come up with a plausible reason why you decided not to take it even though it was offered by your school .

As many schools don't encourage 4 A level subjects DS chose not to do further maths as it narrowed his options for many uni courses.

If the school really wouldn't allow more than 3 then of course that was sensible - but some will treat double maths as being less workload than two separate subjects, especially in certain combinations (and also given that only kids who are good at maths will be doing FM). DDs school will allow the brightest to do 3xSci and 2xmaths.

Glad I found this thread. Dd has chosen maths physics, chemistry and graphic design. She plans to drop the latter at AS. She wants to do aeronautical engineering ( not sure where the idea came from!). Are you all going to tell me this is mad?

Its not mad but she might do well to check with admissions at universities she's interested in.

The (in)famous Trinity College 'Acceptable combinations' website specifies FM if the school offers it for engineering, maths, comp sci and physics, and if unable to take FM then AS FM in addition to 3 relevant A2.

A bigger advantage than further maths for many engineering courses is being female. There is a drive to encourage girls to study STEM subjects in school and FE colleges.

There is a drive to encourage female applications, but here at least admissions are, and always have been, gender blind. You will see universities saying "we welcome applications from women" but that does not have to mean they will be given preferential treatment.

Offers and prerequisites aren't any different for females, though, and well qualified applicants in engineering in any case usually get offers from many places they apply to. (I.e. it's not that competitive, although the good places are still selective.)

Engineering courses (outside a very few universities) would reduce their applicant pool too much if they made further maths a pre-requisite but FM is clearly desirable. I don't see any evidence that those without FM struggle all the way through - generally in the first year all FM material (and a lot more besides) is covered by the maths courses. After the first year any advantage in having FM generally disappears. The same is true for maths and physics degrees.