Schools and parents advising on A Levels

[duhgldiuhfdsli]

Yesterday was dispiriting, and tomorrow I suspect is going to be the same.

I spent a few hours staffing my department's stand at the open day "subject fair", which is meant to act as a central point to talk to staff from all departments.

Were I the weeping in public sort, I would weep in public at the number of people I saw who were keen to do our course, but hadn't got the right A Level choices. Given we are substantially less prescriptive for this subject than other universities of similar standing, they won't have the right A Levels for any similar course either. I'm in STEM, but my brothers and sisters in the humanities report precisely similar problems: keen, motivated students who may have well have saved their parents the petrol.

Where do they get their advice from? How do people get into a position of attending a Russell Group open day, travelling some distance, accompanied by their enthusiastic parents, but have A Level choices for which there are essentially no Russell Group courses, and certainly not in the subjects they are interested in? This is "I didn't think you needed maths in order to study engineering, so I gave up" and "surely biology is more important than chemistry for doctors?" level stuff.

What on earth are their schools, and in some cases their parents, thinking?

also from experience a lot of 6th form students don't fully research courses before open days...

The conclusion I draw from reading the posts by duhgldiuhfdsli and cricketballs is that 16 is simply too young to choose to commit to hard enabling subjects when there is no clear goal and when subjects that appear more attractive are available instead.

So for those unsure as to whether they want to do STEM or Humanities - Maths, History, Physics and English or another language would be ideal?

It bugs me that so many young people are not being advised re the importance of choosing facilitating subjects...

The conclusion I draw is that the 11-18 model of schooling is preferable, because then the school is supporting the students right through: choosing options at the end of KS3, taking GCSEs, choosing sixth form subjects, applying successfully for a university course of their choice.

My shot at the 'take you to nearly everything' combo would be Maths, Chemistry, MFL and an essay based subject such as History or English

...but surely pupils have to be good at the subjects. I wouldn't advise a C/B grade student to take maths because it was a good subject to have to apply for university when it is a notoriously big jump from GCSE to A level - what would be the point in that? They'd probably end up with a D grade or below, which would be of little use to them in their application.
Surely all pupils should go with subject areas they are stronger in (and usually there's a strong correlation with that being subjects they enjoy) ?
It would be nice for all pupils to know in advance that this subject or that is considered more highly than another, but at the end of the day, it's only useful if you are capable of getting a good grade in it.

ds1's school won't allow pupils to take maths unless they have an A at GCSE.
There are Ofqual proposals for a new qualification called Core Maths, which will be taken by all students, unless they are already taking Maths A level.

Edexcel Core maths: www.edexcel.com/quals/core-mathematics/Pages/default.aspx

Guidance from DfE on Core Maths: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303050/Core_maths_technical_guidance_-Consultation_Document.pdf

The original plan was for teaching from 2015, but I suspect it has been delayed along with the new linear Maths A Level, which is now to be available for teaching from Sep 2016, first exams 2018.

meditrina, MissScatterbrain

You need chemistry to do medicine or anything adjacent to medicine, but usually also need at least AS biology. You usually need physics to do engineering or anything adjacent to engineering (although, amusingly, you don't need physics to do physics at Oxford). A Level MFL is only required for doing MFL.

I suspect you need to make a "medicine v not-medicine" decision; "everything that isn't medicine" would be maths, physics, history, AS MFL. Not doing physics closes off most of engineering.

This is a fascinating thread. DS1 is a classic all-rounder who had no idea what to do for A-levels because he loved everything. Having narrowed it down from about nine subjects, he pondered Maths, Physics, History and French, to keep everything including Engineering open (Medicine was never appealing) but then decided he was going to head towards humanities so is doing Maths (with Further Maths AS), History, French and a last-minute decision for English instead of Latin.

Now he is thinking History degree, and wants to apply to Oxbridge, and was wondering whether to try to convert all the Maths into one full A level by doing a module on his own and then being able to keep all three humanities going but having read this thread I wonder if Maths A2 would be more of an advantage than he thinks, especially as I think his Maths is very strong and the English is the most challenging for him at the moment. Any opinions?

How is the maths being done? You can do maths and further maths by doing C1-C4 and two modules in one year (A2 maths) and the FP1-FP4 and two more modules in the next year (A2 further maths). But it's unusual, and far more common is to do C1, C2, FP1, FP2, two modules in one year (AS maths, AS further maths) and then FP3, FP4 and two more modules in the next year (A2 maths, A2 further maths). You can't take C1, C2, FP1, FP2 and (say) M1 and S1 and claim A2 maths just because you've got four core and two optional modules: you have to have C1 through C4 in order to get A2 maths.

You'd need to ask a tutor, but I would have thought that Maths, History, MFL would be very compelling for History. English doesn't really add anything for History.

Sorry, I got it wrong - he's thinking about working for a Maths AS and a Further Maths AS by doing C1, C2, M1, S1, and FP1 and then teaching himself something like S2 or D1. He's not sure if he would need FP2 to do this but thinks not.

It's interesting that you don't think English adds anything; we'll check that further but that may be the best argument for continuing with Maths to A2. He chose English because various History courses said they liked another essay subject. He is enjoying it, though.

Lady I'm not an expert at all (did do a History degree at Oxbridge but that was, in fact, in historical times) but I would think the Maths would offer quite a lot of advantages - he would stand out immediately from a lot of other History applicants, and he would presumably be able to talk about statistics, data and modelling in social/economic history. Has he read The Wages of Destruction? A lot of that went over my head because it's just too mathematical.

There's also the fact that the history of maths and science is fascinating. Wonderful papers available via these fine people.

duhgldiuhfdsli

This

(although, amusingly, you don't need physics to do physics at Oxford)

isn't a particularly helpful statement.

Looking at the official entrance requirements
(www2.physics.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduates/applications/entrance-requirements) it says 'expected to have Physics and Mathematics to A-level [or equivalent]' rather than 'have to have'. But (as a physicist) I've yet to meet a Physics undergraduate who doesn't have Physics (and Maths) A-level. I'm also not sure how someone who wasn't doing Physics A-level would manage to do the Physics Aptitude Test...

Has he read The Wages of Destruction?

Fantastic book.

It feels like such a narrowing to go down to only 3 or 4 subjects at 16 (and to decide upon them even earlier) and finding the valuable advice directed at the young people themselves in among all the opinion is not easy.

I have a ds in y11, he's very mathsy with high functioning ASD, the school have offered no careers advice and I don't trust myself to know what to advise him (and I'm a bit of a chicken in worrying that he'll turn to me in a few years and blame me for his choices).

We went to a careers advisor over the summer holidays who spent ages with him and we think he has chosen the right A Levels for him, they are very narrow (Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Computer Science) but they suit his abilities and he can go into engineering with them which is his eventual aim.

It all seems about putting together a venn diagram of things you enjoy, things your good at and things that earn money and seeing what is in the middle that could be a career then working backwards from that.

expected to have Physics and Mathematics to A-level

I should check my throw-away comments. Someone told me a couple of years ago (possibly pre aptitude tests) that maths, further maths and something would be OK for physics. I'm not surprised to hear it's not true now, and probably wasn't then...

joan thanks, will recommend he has a look at that book. I tried to persuade him that HPS might be fun but haven't succeeded thus far...

LPW not sure I'd agree with the suggestion that English does nor really add anything for History. DS1 is reading History at Cambridge, English was one of his other A level subjects. That said an anecdote based on a single student hardly qualifies as definitive evidence one way or the other. However also unlikely to go far wrong with History, Maths and an MFL. All strong facilitating subjects. If your DS has a strong preference for Maths and a greater affinity for it than English then seems a more than reasonable option.

If he is thinking Cambridge or Oxford just bear in mind that the two have differing admissions processes - at least when it comes to History.

that would be "not" rather than "nor" - must get to grips with the preview option. :)

OP, but if you want to do most biology courses you don't need maths. I moved from physics, to biology, I didn't need any of my maths A level even as a postgrad.

Some basic stats, yes, but nothing I'd learnt at school.

Biology and Chemistry, physics or even geography at some universities will do just fine.

DD1 is doing three sciences and art, it makes physics a bit harder, but they have an extra maths session for the non mathematicians and DH is very good at maths too.

She's dyslexic, three sciences and maths would have been too much, she does art to relax.

(And I know art exams have their moments, but compared with relentless maths sheets they are bliss.)

Thanks, boys - I guess we'll see how the AS levels go to find out where he might be stronger or weaker. His GCSE results were uniformly excellent so I'm hoping that A-levels will challenge him enough to point to where his strengths are, and where he will need to put the hardest work in.

He's thinking about Cambridge rather than Oxford so good to hear English was ok for your DS. Any History at Cambridge application tips gratefully received!

On maths: at the pre-A level parents talk at my son's school, we were warned not to encourage our children to do maths if they were not very good at it. This as a school where almost all would have got A* for the IGCSE, so I assume for some this was their ceiling. Maths A level is quite an easy A level if you have aptitude and good teaching. However if you are struggling, it is hard work, confidence sapping and time consuming. Its not just that you might have got a better grade in another subject, but that by having a subject you find difficult and are having to focus on, your other grades might suffer.

Plus the distribution of grades seems wider in maths. The good mathematicians seem to get more predicable As and As than say the historians, but for those that struggle a very poor grade, lower than they might have got with an essay subject, seems possible. The same seems to apply with Further. Some seemed to end up with AC or A*B for their two maths A levels, and so might have been better off sticking with the single and getting a good grade in another subject.

That said, not taking maths can limit choices of social science degrees as well.

DS and his friends were told, pre-A level, to research degree options and requirement themselves. There is a lot of material out there. This then meant that our son could have an informed discussion with us and with teachers, about the merits of taking an essay subject or a science subject as his final choice. The latter would have been easier but the former would make him a more rounded candidate. Much nicer than we or school telling him what he should be doing.

It seems blindingly obvious, but I know it does not always happen. I once had a lovely and very able colleague who had not been to University. His son was very bright, particularly in maths and MFL. The college persuaded him to take A levels in law, psychology and media studies as he would get "better grades". Arrgh. I assume the college was focussed either on their league table position or had not been able to recruit good maths and MFL teachers.

Need - I think most 6th forms have the same policy re only taking A or A* students for Maths/Further Maths A levels.

There is a shocking lack of good advice and I suspect lack of research has also a lot to do with poor A level choices.

I know of a wannabe engineer who decided not to take physics for his A level .

Even on MN's education boards you get people saying you don't need to look at choosing facilitating subjects to get into a Russell Group Uni.