Anyone looking at unis out of UK to save on fees/costs? Or lower grades?

[kittybelle]

But with similar ranking/status? Have come across this recently with friends dc - going to Cyrus to do medicine and Bulgaria to do dentistry....

kittybelle - What does your firm look for when recruiting that it doesn't find from UK graduates?

We run a whole battery of psychometric tests and then a range of soft skill exercises - collaborative team working, leadership etc. We only recruit from top 6 UK unis and cannot fill our places just from the UK. Loads of applicants from the top 6 with the required qualifications (so volume OK) but we still need to go out of the UK to get additional candidates of the caliber we require for our business. About 80% are filled from UK - 20% from EU.

Which select EU & UK Unis do you approach?

But wait... 40k lost earnings assumes that's 40k that wouldn't have been spent on living expenses. So you're assuming that someone without any degree or qualifications would earn 13k/yr post tax & modest living expenses at age 19-21.

(Am I only one who thinks that's unlikely?!)

Also, you asked about medicine which is a 5 yr course in UK, so adjust numbers accordingly.

ps: DD wants a high paid job & we banter about medicine or city trader. Seems like becoming a city trader with a degree depends on a battery of psychometric tests, and how would a teenager know if they possibly have the right qualities to do well on those psychometric tests?

Absolutely..... take a look at the higher apprenticeship scheme -- where 18 year olds get their degree fees paid for by the company - so earning whilst learning. The big 4 accountancy and law firms are now recruiting more this way than post uni - just another route to the same job.....BAe systems pay their first year apprentices £24k.

Scale up the figures from 3 to five years....? £160k?

Loads of companies to do psychometric testing to establish your underlying core abilities, critical thinking, problem solving, values and emotional drivers.

You need to do these to get into most medical schools and Oxbridge.

My sons school does this at the start of year 11 - so that you have a clear idea if you have the correct innate hard and soft skills for the career that you want to develop. Quite often it throws up very different career options - so this is then a great guide to what career, what degree, what A levels and even what GCSEs to aim for A*/A.

This is the company that my sons school use - cost about £90 -- small upfront cost to get your £160k investment right: www.morrisby.com/

UK Uni we recruit from are the obvious top 6: Ox, Cam, Imp, UCL, Bristol, Durham

The obvious top 6? Seriously? As an academic I would say only 3 or 4 of those would automatically get into the top 10. One of the six is known to have standards and recruitment levels in free fall.

And I presume posts are not allowed to advertise.

My school did psychometric career tests at a similar point and they were a total waste of time. Mine said I wasn't 'caring' enough to be an accountant! Can't remember what it recommended I did except that it was something I had zero interest in or aptitude for. I don't recall anyone thinking they were worthwhile although I understand that it was trumpeted about on the school prospectus.

I'm not surprised your firm has to look further afield if it limits itself to so few UK universities on the basis of what looks (from the outside) to be snobbery.

I used to do checks for foreign doctors practicing in the UK and it was much more than just a 'you qualified as a doctor in another country so welcome'. In fact it was considered a significant problem how difficult it was to start practicing. Now I work in higher education myself I'm not surprised - the approach and syllabus where I live now (Canada) is very different to the UK. Some specialisms here don't exist in the UK and vice versa. I would do very very careful research before going down that path and make sure that qualifications are both accepted and considered respectable by recruiting hospitals.

We only recruit from top 6 UK unis

Very limited thinking. I have no idea if my current place is on your list, but if you were one of my 2nd year undergrads, you'd be questioned quite closely about that as a research method.

Basic stuff: the questions you ask, and the evidence you choose to examine, will determine much of the outcome. As you show in your company's thinking. Basic mistake.

A bit odd. I met someone who recruited for a popular graduate scheme who said that the volume of applications was such that they did some initial very basic triage, including 2.1s and top ranked universities, before considering applications further. She suspected that she would not have got through with a degree from Exeter. She was sure they missed some good candidates.

However this was because they had too many good applicants. Not that they would only consider a select number of Universities and then had to go abroad for the rest.

I wonder if Kitty's firm is looking for subjects, rather than Universities as a whole. Student engineers seem to be headed to Surrey, Southampton and Sheffield because of the degrees they offer, presumably hoping to be high in the queue when specialist firms are recruiting. People recruiting mathematicians will know where to look first for the skills they are seeking. Otherwise agree with Chimney. I cant see how Kittys firm will achieve the outcome it wants. Would be interested to know which European Universities they consider.

Student loans are not available for overseas courses.

I don't agree with kitty that top law firms are recruiting more 18 year olds than they are graduates, simply not true.

If the money was a factor I'd consider living at home and studying at the local university which will cut costs considerably (I'm not sure you can count "lost earnings" as a cost by the way unless you're leaving a job to become a mature student).

If the issue is more that there's no university place and a strong desire to follow a course specific career sun as medicine then that's the beauty of the EU and yes I'd consider exploring European options. Going to the US would be an amazing experience IMO but likely to be more expensive.

There is no way that top law firms are recruiting more 18 year olds than there are graduates. The need for trainees in the profession has declined dramatically and law firms are now using unqualified paralegals far more (I own a law firm).

What kitty probably means is that there are hundreds of young people out there with law degrees who will not get a training contract and the law firms can pick the absolute best. The absolute best candidates will not always be from the UK.

Oops sorry, read the post properly now. The top law firms (and indeed most law firms) are recruiting more younger candidates. That's because they are using cheap paralegals to do the work of expensive trainees and junior lawyers. Only a tiny number of these will go on to get a training contract. That's not the model. The model is take on bright kids (the vast majority of whom have been unable to get a training contract) who will work for a few years as a paralegal for £15k and then when they leave replace them with the next batch.

Kittybelle - I can't quite see the logic of only recruiting from certain universities. Your firm must be missing so many amazing candidates. The brightest / most organised girl in my dc's school went to Sheffield on an unconditional offer. Interesting about all the psychometric tests and exercises.

Which university is in freefall out of that list? Does anyone know? They all seem amazing universities.

KittyBelle - your company's problem is it is so narrow in which Universities it looks at!

At least one has a lot of Overseas students who aim to go "home" when they finish, and probably don't have the residential qualifications to stay and work here (DH taught there for a while). They are okay Universities but very Southern biased even Durham, and a lot don't have courses which encourage the development of "soft skills" such as team work. Of course the best will develop these by themselves, but they are also the candidates who are the most in demand - so even the most "popular" companies will have a chance of recruiting only a few.

Back to your original question, if your company only recruits Graduates from those 6 UK Universities - then there are very few European Universities of an close to equivalent reputation - and going to those is not a cost saving decision (in fact it could cost more, and cost even to gain entry).

So your company is missing a lot of brilliant graduates. Going to Europe won't cost you less necessarily than getting into one of those 6. Going to the US could cost you far more.

That's weird, when I looked at apprenticeships for DS I could barely find any that paid above £130/week. But maybe I was looking only at post-GCSE / no A-level positions. Are there really LOTS of apprenticeship schemes that pay someone with only "good" A-levels £2k/month? Fig me, I've got 25 yrs work experience & a PhD & I earn barely more than that.

Shall I google that for you?..

www.baesystems.com/our-company-rgb/our-businesses-uk/military-air-&-information/apprenticeships-in-lancashire/project-control-foundation-scheme;baeSessionId=LYCi0dswQJ33eqopdA2kKPXivHUVZ6cvaG8sw-yemk-xmkpVHfdi!1472056472?_afrLoop=288561561478000&_afrWindowMode=0&_afrWindowId=null#!%40%40%3F_afrWindowId%3Dnull%26_afrLoop%3D288561561478000%26_afrWindowMode%3D0%26_adf.ctrl-state%3Dql2v837pw_4

One scheme with "Starting Salary [] over £20k" is not the same as "LOTS of apprenticeship schemes that pay someone with only "good" A-levels £2k/month"...

Some apprenticeships are harder to get into than Oxbridge (or probably Harvard).

Post A level top flight apprentices do start around £20k but those schemes are very competitive and for those with top grades who choose that option instead of uni. They are not traditional apprentice routes

Although we're all posting anonymously on the internet, I think we all tend to read a thread looking for ways in which what a posters says adds up ...

by definition "top flight" is not available to the vast majority, no?

This says avg apprentice wage is 170/week, but that includes 16-18. Seems that minimum wage is the only requirement post 19 or after the first year, so that is probably close to £1000 FT. Or 12k/annum. Not 20k.

And if the average is 170/week, but some pay 500/week, then the median must be much lower than 170/week.

This says the highest paying AP-ship was in Extractive and Mineral Processing Occupations (above business & law), with average salary /yr = £17,609. I must be looking at wrong sources, maybe.

DS will try military before he pursues apprenticeships, for sure.

Pp, look at bears link.

Is a post-A-levels apprenticeship what they call a Higher Apprenticeship? Which is only required to pay minimum wage?

Sorry for Daily Fail link: load of people on Higher apprenticeships making min. wage saying how great it is. And I'm glad they're happy, honest. Even if like only 2 of 70 applicants were successful for their schemes.

I still don't believe a lot of high paid apprenticeships are out there or as accessible as University degree can be.

dax - nearly every blue chip UK based global employer is offering Higher Apprenticeships - where you can earn and learn to achieve degree, MSc and PhD.... so yes there are LOTS - and they offer an amazing experience and cost effective route to many careers....£100k up with intensive work experience and a guaranteed job at the end of training,

Parents are not told about them by schools as schools are more interested in promoting that x% pupils went to RG univesity in their "destination stats"

www.pwc.co.uk/careers/schools/careers/what-are-apprenticeships.jhtml

Law: In March this year the new higher apprenticeship in Legal Services was introduced. Equivalent to the first year of a law degree, and taking between 24 and 30 months to complete, it means that for the first time lawyers will be able to qualify without a university education.