How important is Further Maths at A-level if applying for Physics degree?

[Hamuketsu]

Dd1 (my first to reach this stage) will soon be choosing subjects for A-level. She is already sure that she wants to do Physics at university. Her choices at A-level would have been Physics, Maths, Further Maths and Spanish (dropping Spanish after AS as her school discourages 4 subjects at A2). (Where we live, Sixth Forms are nearly all within the local grammar schools, and there is less culture of moving for Sixth Form.)

However, her school only offers Further Maths A-level if there are enough pupils wanting to take it, and this has never happened! Other local schools are similar. So although she would (reluctantly) move for Sixth form if needed, it's much more likely that there will be nowhere local where she can do Further Maths.

So she has to decide whether or not to do Further Maths at home, alongside the 3 A-levels she'd be doing at school. (No chance of doing just 2 A-levels at school as she would not then be a full-time pupil.) We would have difficulty affording a tutor. Also, I'm concerned that it would be too much work/stress, doing 5 subjects at AS and 4 at A2. I know that many pupils do this, though, so maybe that's less of an issue (?)

She's looking at Scottish universities, with a preference for St Andrews which I know is very competitive for Physics. I know that many universities don't specify FM in their official entry requirements, because not all schools can offer it. But I wondered whether she realistically would need Further Maths if applying for Physics, especially at very competitive universities such as St Andrews.

Any advice/experience would be helpful! :)

Well Oxford says that further maths is not actually required to get in, but can be helpful in completing the course. So if the reason she doesnt have it is that she couldnt get to do it, they would I suspect be more sympathetic than if she could have done but but wasnt good enough.

Could she do her A level maths in one year rather than 2? and then do further maths in the second year? that's what lots of places do, and perhaps the school would then be flexible about letting her not bother with the Spanish.

Thanks, Beastofburden - I can ask the school about that. She'd probably be capable of a one-year A-level if needed. Fortunately dh has a Maths degree and could work with her a bit, although he doesn't have time to be a "proper" tutor to her.

In terms of admissions to Physics degrees, Further Maths definitely isn't required by any UK university. Applicants who've had the opportunity to take it and chosen not to may be at a small disadvantage when applying to the most competitive courses (c.f. the last sentence of the answer to 'Do I need one or two maths A-levels?' on the Oxford Physics admissions FAQ www2.physics.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduates/faqs/faq-admissions ). However universities realise that many schools don't offer FM and we don't penalise students who haven't had the opportunity to take it. You can trust the info on university admissions web-sites. Contrary to the opinions of some posters on Mumsnet, we don't officially say one thing and then unofficially do something different! FWIW I'm a Physics lecturer at a Russell Group university and the majority of our undergraduates haven't done FM.

Having said that, having FM A-level is helpful for doing a physics degree. The maths you need will be covered in a first year 'Maths for physics' (or similar) lecture course. However the level of maths that is required for university physics is a shock for many students. Having encountered some of the topics already in FM, and just having had a lot more practice at doing maths, helps.

The Futher Maths Support programme web-site might be helpful:
www.furthermaths.org.uk/students

dapoxen, that is great information, and reassuring to hear from a Physics lecturer. It will really help dd1 with her decisions. Thank you very much indeed!

Even those courses such as Maths, that do ask for Further Maths always say unless the school does not offer it.

lots of state schools don't offer further maths, it's part of widening access to be aware of that.

There's a big difference between someone who could have done it, but didn't risk it; and someone who has the maths ability but didn't get the chance to do the course.

The Oxford tab Dapoxen quoted says it all really:

The Oxford Physics course is highly-mathematical. We expect that all students who are accepted to study Physics at Oxford would be capable of achieving a Grade A in Further Maths A-level, even if they have not taken the exam. It is important that you are good at maths and enjoy the prospect of applying it to physical problems.

Further Maths A-level can be helpful in completing the course, but is not required for admission. We accept there are many reasons why a candidate may not take Further Maths at A-level and a significant minority of the students admitted to study Physics each year offer only single maths.

These students must undertake extra work in the summer vacation and their first term to catch-up with their peers, but our research shows they are not disadvantaged after the first year. Where A-level Further Mathematics is not offered, an AS-level or equivalent in Further Mathematics may be helpful in easing the transition from school to university studies. Our "standard" maths courses in the first term do not assume knowledge of Further Maths material, but they cover the relevant bits very quickly before getting on to the new stuff. Even those who have done A2 Further Maths will find that they are learning new maths after only a few weeks at Oxford.

When a candidate applies to study Physics at Oxford, we assess their mathematical ability by a number of means, including the Physics Aptitude Test, interviews and current/existing exam results. Our admissions tutors have a great deal of experience in assessing candidates with single or double maths and will make an assessment of your mathematical ability bearing in mind the amount of maths you have been able to study at school. However, for candidate on a borderline, those who have studied Further Maths may have greater opportunity to prove their mathematical ability that those studying only single Maths A-level.

Thank you :)

So if the school doesn't offer it, then she'd still be OK. Is it likely to make a difference, though, if her own current school hadn't offered FM but a different school a few miles away did offer it? She also needs to decide whether to move schools if her own school doesn't get enough interest but a different one does offer FM next year. It may not happen, but there's a local boys' grammar that has very occasionally offered FM, and in those years I think they admitted a few girls to Sixth Form as it was the only place they could study it. Obviously dd1 wouldn't be keen, but would that count as FM having been "available" to her?

Cross-posted with BoB ! :) That's also very useful to know. Dd1 is the type who'll be delving into Further Maths on her own, even without following a course, so hopefully with a bit of direction she'd be able to extend her Maths in the right direction.

Bear in mind that at Oxford anyway, there will be a lot of individual attention to her application, so they will take a rounded view. They won't have to tick a box that says "was FM available within a reasonable commute" . What they will look for is, has she got it? will she cope? and that will be based partly on the aptitude tests. Where they might well worry, is with a kid who went to an excellent school where they know full well she could have done FM, and for some reason she didn't choose it. They would want to know why not, I should think.

I know you are actually thinking Scottish Unis, but why not go to an Oxford open day for physics, and/or go on the UNIQ summer school for physics? www.uniq.ox.ac.uk/ She would learn a ton about physics and what she would need and how to prepare. it would be useful for St Andrews too. what are you doing this Friday? there's an open day then.

www2.physics.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduates/open-days

DS did Physics (A*) Maths (B) and Biology (A) - his offers varied from AAA (Durham and Warwick) to ABB (Sheffield and York). He went to Sheffield and came out with a 2:1, but worked extremely hard throughout his 3 years. He has just completed a Master at Imperial College, and says he didn't have to work nearly as hard as he did for his Physics degree.

So good luck to your DD - it can be done without FM (in DS's experience) but it's a tough one, although very well respected.

This is great information - very grateful to all. Sadly there's too much sea in between for us to make Oxford by Friday, but we're starting to plan a few Open Days. I'll show her the summer school link and see what she says

good luck!

This is off the topic of this thread, but secretsquirrels is it definitely still true that "Even those courses such as Maths, that do ask for Further Maths always say unless the school does not offer it."?

AS FM is an "essential requirement" ("It is likely that you will be rejected without interview if you do not have this subject") for Cambridge maths (www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/maths/index.php#Entry-Requirements).

A* at A2 FM is part of the standard Imperial minimum maths offer (www3.imperial.ac.uk/mathematics/admissions/ug/applications_and_offers). That web-page does mention 'each application is considered on its individual merits', but doesn't say anything specfically about not needing FM if your school doesn't offer it.

Warwick's standard offer (www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/maths/admissions/ug/offer) includes either A* or A in A2 FM. Furthermore they say "If your school does not offer Further Maths, the Further Maths Support Programme can help. Its aim is "to ensure that all students who could benefit from studying Further Mathematics have the opportunity to do so"; it provides support of various kinds for both teachers and pupils."

dapoxen The Ops DC is applying for Physics so I was just illustrating that even for most maths degrees FM is not a requirement.
To be honest Cambridge is a different matter on it's own. They select using STEP. Everyone who gets an offer is likely to get A* in maths and Further Maths.

I found first year maths in Natural Sciences (just Physics isnt offered) at Cambridge really difficult due to not having FM.

I'm quite surprised at grammar schools not having sufficient take up to run FM as I have seen full classes in comprehensives.

Don't Scottish universities differ due to taking lots of students who have taken highers rather than A levels? I don't know much about what this would mean in practice.

My son's school offers further maths after school because they can't fit it into the timetable. The teacher and students have free time during the school day when they would have been taking a subject.

Yes secretsquirrels I know the OP's DC is applying for Physics. That's why I started my post with "This is off the topic of this thread...". My point was that your statement ("Even those courses such as Maths, that do ask for Further Maths always say unless the school does not offer it.") is not currently correct.

This might seem pedantic, but this sort of misinformation can damage the prospects of students from non-standard backgrounds/schools. I'm a theoretical physicist from a working class rural background, so I'm painfully familiar with these sorts of issues.

Many thanks for the info Dapoxen that website looks really helpful.

If someone does decide to self-study Further Maths material in preparation for a physics degree, I'd strongly recommend starting with the Further Pure modules. There's significant overlap between what they cover and a typical first year university 'maths for physics' course.

Beyond that the mechanics modules are also (unsurprisingly) relevant, but the syllabi for M4 and M5 get quite advanced (compared with the FP modules at least). The Statistics modules aren't as directly relevant to physics, but would be useful for labs and project work.

I studied physics at Oxford, having taken FM at a school which had only taught it once before, to a single student who got an E. This was a while back when entrance exams were available, but the attitude was very much that they advised me to take it even if my grade was unlikely to be brilliant - because it would be useful. They were very sympathetic to my situation. (Like your DD, my fourth subject was a MFL).

I'm glad I did - people who hadn't taken it really struggled, physics at university is very mathematical.

I'm surprised her school would discourage 4 Alevels if one is FM - maybe they haven't really considered the FM case if they've never actually taught it? In any case, I think she should be extremely wary of having only 3 Alevels where one is a subject that the teacher's not taught before.

I see your dh is a maths graduate - her best bet might be to study FM at home with him to ask if she gets stuck, probably not bothering with exams, and to do 3 AS followed by 3 A2 at school so she's not overloaded. I can't see any university kicking up much of a fuss if she explained her situation.

It might make a difference if she wanted direct entry to second year at a Scottish university, but not having further maths is unlikely to be an issue if she wants to go in to first year.