Accountancy, really?! Any uni accounts or business tutors around???

[BettyBotter]

Ds1 (in yr 12) has flummoxed me a bit. After refusing to discuss uni AT ALL until today, except to say he wants to go and do 'something in Science', he has now announced he wants to be an accountant and do a degree in business/finance/ accounting. well at least he's thinking at last

Problem is, he's not doing any business/ economics type subjects except maths, the work exeriency type stuff he's got planned is all science related and we as a family know F all about finance and business. Gulp.

What on earth could he write on a UCAS form? What sort of experience or interests would admissions tutors be looking for? How can he show an interest in something that he knows nothing about yet? And would he be better of doing a degree in something else and then getting into accountancy post degree if he's still keen?

I don't think being quite good at maths, enjoying wearing a suit and spending money will probably cut it for admissions tutors, will it?

For Accountancy and/or Finance all he will need is A-level maths and any two other serious subjects.

That's helpful Bonsoir
What experience or interests would admissions tutors want to see?

I am a chartered accountant. I did my degree in a totally unrelated subject, then got taken on as a graduate trainee where I was sponsored to do my exams (it takes 3 years to qualify). There was no real advantage to having an accountancy degree, apart from perhaps the first set of exams being a bit easier.

To be fair, the Partner who offered me a job at the Big4 I trained with said it was rare to take on someone with as unrelated a degree as mine (music!)....more people had Business / Law etc degrees, although there were also some scientists, geographers etc - quite a mixed bunch. What helped to convince her were strong academic results, especially at A-level (A-level grades can be a better predictor of how well people will do in professional exams than degree grade), and the fact that I'd done a good amount of reading such that I could answer case-study questions intelligently. So reading up accountancy-for-beginners type stuff that talks about basic issues, ideas etc. Whichever degree he chooses, it is very worth applying to summer placements with accountancy firms whilst still at University, as if you can impress people there you'd be very likely to get a job offer.

You don't have to have a degree to become an Accountant. In these days of tuition fees and no guarantee of a job on graduation, many are going straight into Accountancy from A Levels. (I'm not talking pupils who couldn't get into University; I'm talking straight-A people who have done the cost/benefit analysis.) Big firms offer this route.

Things may have changed but in my day accountancy degrees were frowned upon. The graduates thought they knew it all and wanted to run before they could walk. Employers preferred the blank slate of a non-accountancy graduate.

So: does he really want a degree and, if so, does he really want a business/accountancy one?

Senua and Pootlebug many thanks. Much food for thought.

Ds wants to go to uni for the whole uni experience but also due to my nagging wants to do a degree that has some sort of career prospects or likelihood of such at the end of it.

He's looked at some of the Big 4 graduate schemes and some are very appealing (we'll pay your fess and give you a job - what's not to like?) but I think frankly he hasn't got a cat in hell's chance without something related on his applications.

I was wondering if he bought a few basic shares with his pocket money to watch the market (can you do this?) and get some books it would be a start.

I was wondering if he bought a few basic shares with his pocket money to watch the market (can you do this?)

You don't need to risk real money.

Does he read newspapers? Listen to radio 4 biz programmes? In business etc? Could he get some work experience this summer just to check it's what he wants to do? Good luck!

Perfect, Senua, thanks. Ds says his school does this already with the business studies people why didn't he say so? so I've told him to go off and talk to those teachers too.

MN is wonderful

He doesn't need work experience, but does need to show an interest.

But a degree in accountancy/business will not open any more doors on graduate training scheme in those areas than a science degree.

So if he is likely to enjoy studying business, he would be better off taking a science degree as then he could both apply for generic business jobs and science ones.

I'm an FCA and what I would do now is aim to enter the profession after A levels:

Research the available qualifications including: AAT, ICAEW, CIPFA, ACMA and ACCA decide what route he'd like to take and to what level he wants to study and look and see what opportunities exist in your area through large, medium and small firms and other training providers (councils, companies etc) and see what training opportunities they offer.

or,

Do a degree in something he loves. I did an apprenticeship but my closest accounting professional friends did a Physics Degree, Geography Degree and a Philosophy Degree.

I'm an FCA and I would absolutely not under any circumstances advise your DS forgo getting a degree before starting a training contract unless the only point of getting an ACA qualification is to then become and entrepreneur and set up his own business.

I would definitiey look at the KPMG schemes in connection with Durham,Manchester and Exeter. If your DS can get accepted on to one of those schemes then it's worth doing an accountancy degree. If not, then not. If your DS wants to get the qualification then go into commerce or industry, knowledge outside the accounting sphere would be beneficial. You mentioned science - that would be a very very good string to anyone's bow. If he wants to stay in the profession though then science might not be so helpful (although I know a very eminent person in the profession with a physics degree) just purely because there is an increasing emphasis on the ability to communicate and IME the science graduates we see coming through are less good at this than the social science/humanities graduates. (Im actually involved in a thing about this issue later this week (being purposely vague here)).

The key decision he needs to at least acknowledge at this stage is whether he wants to qualify and stay in the professions or use the qualification to do something else. The next important thing to consider is where he wants to train and work. Once he has an idea of that he can make more informed decisions about degree subject. He can also, as noted above, consider whether he needs/wants to be a chartered accountant or whether ACCA, CIMA or CIPFA might be better fits for what he wants to achieve.

I would absolutely not under any circumstances advise your DS forgo getting a degree before starting a training contract unless the only point of getting an ACA qualification is to then become and entrepreneur and set up his own business.

Please expand.

Which bit didn't you understand? Or was it my typo you had an issue with? AN entrepreneur. Not and. :(

You made a dogmatic statement but didn't take it any further. I just wanted to know your reasoning.

A lot of companies still demand graduates for jobs - even if candidates have accountancy qualifications and several years experience. Not all, by any means, but for some it's the first level of sifting through on application forms.

His degree might also be relevant in terms of who he wants to work for. So for instance I used to work for a pharmaceutical company. There were more science graduates on the graduate training scheme there than there were in my Big4 Graduate training programme, for instance.

As a poster said above, try and work out what sort of accountancy qualification he wants. Bear in mind that with chartered training it is still easy to change to management accountancy, whereas going from a management accountant background into an accountancy firm and chartered-type role would be much harder.

Is there a local charity where he could lend a hand with their books? Obviously would have to have a sympathetic person to help him as he wouldn't necessarily be much 'help' early on, but he could help with the nuts and bolts stuff and get a feel for it.

A lot of companies still demand graduates for jobs - even if candidates have accountancy qualifications and several years experience. Not all, by any means, but for some it's the first level of sifting through on application forms.

That was the reasoning I was expecting. I was wondering if there was something else, too.
Some employers are plonkers. If HR says a job is graduate-level then a degree becomes a requirement. Even though a CCAB qualification is post-graduate level, some blinkered box-tickers can't see past the lack of degree.

If the OPs DS wants to run his own business and wants to get accountancy qualifications as a means to facilitate that end then a degree is probably (not definitely) irrelevant. If the OP's DS wants to stay in practice, especially, or if he wants to move into high level roles in commerce or industry then he will need more - for want of a better word - 'rounding' than he will get going in as an AAT trainee at 18. If he wants to get to the top of the profession, especially, then he will need a degree (preferably an unrelated one). There are always the exceptions who go on to do decently but the attrition rates for those who enter at 18 intending to go all the way to full qualification and then progress their career to manager then partner or director level are huge. The attrition rates for graduates aren't non negligable but of course if you drop out for whatever reason halfway through your training contract at least you do have a degree.

FCA here too.
I am a bit out of touch but it always used to be recommended to do a solid academic degree (its used to be that trainees with Latin degrees did best on the training courses )- i have a maths degree. You can demonstrate keeness by doing things such as subsidiary subjects in a ccounting, joining business clubs, looking after the business finance side of whatever clubs/socs you are in.
But accounting is a broad area - so he should think about what aspects he likes (is it small businesses, city, auditing etc) and look at interests that support that

It's mainly about the attrition rates. But it's also about what the person themselves are able to bring to the table - without that 3 (or 4) years at university it's just less. Less maturity. Fewer skills. Most people who start training as technicians stay as technicians. Or they go off and make an absolute fortune being entrepreneurs.

Thank you.
True about the attrition rates. It's not nice for the trainees but they have to keep the standard up to protect their reputation.

Here's info on how to get an accounting degree via KPMG (one of Big Four accountancy firms) with no fees and a salary while you learn: www.kpmgcareers.co.uk/school-leavers/school-leaver-programme or there's this at Newcastle university: careers.icaew.com/school-students-leavers/Entry-routes/University-and-higher-education/Flying-Start-Degree

But I can vouch you don't need an accountancy degree to train and work as an accountant - DD1 is a grad trainee with another Big 4 firm and is doing well, having taken a degree in Geography.

If costs/fees are an issue, then sponsored route might be best. otherwise yuour son should do a degree in what he likes and build up experience and skills that accountancy firms like - eg willingness to work hard, get up on time, co-operate with other people etc. They do like applicants who've done sport, eg, as evidence of this, I think.

Senua - yes. It's not nice. I was being at least partly altruistic when I said don't skip the degree - I think it's vital to have that in the bank. But I wasn't being wholly altruistic. There are skills which are better acquired and honed at university. Skills vital to auditing at any rate, and likely to the other areas of the profession as well. Trainees need a firm grounding in those skills before they click in anger. (Click. So mush less evocative than 'wield a pencil'. Sigh. )

As a profession we are moving away from the 'do you play rugby' stereotype and more in the direction of 'convince me you might have read a book, ever'.

I'm a big 4 lifer. Not sure of the exact stats (I'm not involved in grad recruitment) but I think around half our grad intake have relevant degrees (accountancy, economics, business etc) the rest have a wide mixture - languages, maths, geography, engineering, various sciences, history, English, music. I did physics and music. You need good solid GSCEs and A levels, and at least a 2:1. Having that wide range of skills in the team is a strength. I would advise studying what you love and are therefore likely to get a good degree in, and if that's accountancy, so be it. Also, have a look at the higher apprencticeship schemes that are now on offer. I agree that if you fail then you're not left with much, but if you succeed you'll get a great training without the fee hangover.

Coming back to thank you all. Every post has been useful and Ds has read through everything and found it really helpful and now I'll have to change my user name

He is taking on board the advice that an accountancy degree would not necessarily be any more of an advantage in the long run than eg a science degree and that he could still follow accountancy as training route post graduation. I think he may go the science way and try to get relevant accounts type experience in the holidays.

Now he just has to get the grades...