Advice for an ambitious Year 9?

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

If you could give a very ambitious Year 9 who has their eyes on Oxbridge or similar some advice on options, activities etc over the next few years what would it be?

dd is very ambitious, academic and a hard worker. She knows where she wants to go in life and is very focussed. The choices she makes will be her own, but I'd like to be able to give her the guidance she needs.

As I've said on another thread, her headteacher wants her to do things like DoE to help, but I'm not sure that is good advice. I've told her that if she wants to for enjoyment and thinks she can comfortably fit it in then she is welcome to do it, but she doesnt need to. She wants to go to summer school for her favourite subject and we are going to try and arrange that for her. Am I on the right sort of track?

Thanks!

but if you have a child who already does voluntary work and lots of extra-curricular stuff, then it is worth being armoured against schools who push it.

On the contrary. DD found DofE OK because it was essentially just putting a wrapper around what she was already doing anyway. The only add-on was the expedition.

My DS is in year 13 and has an Oxford offer for Maths.

He had bronze/silver D of E, is a grade 8 instrumentalist etc etc but did not mention anything like that in his personal statement which was absolutely all about Maths. At one of the open days we attended they told us make it a love letter to Maths and don't tell us about anything else.

DS has straight A* at GCSE but knows 2 others holding Maths offers and both dropped to an A in a couple of GCSEs.

I felt the whole process of applying to Oxford was very gruelling. Even picking a college out of 30 is hard when you don't know what you are doing. The stress at every stage is horrid. Exam in autumn term, half of candidates who must nearly all be destined to achieve A* s in Maths and Further Maths or why apply, then rejected. Interviews are then about 3 candidates for every place. DS was there for 4 days and had 4 interviews. Then all over Xmas the fact we didn't know the outcome hung over us. I think you have to really want it to put yourself through it.

Cambridge is considered better than Oxford for Maths. The course is apparently heavier on theoretical physics which stopped my DS from applying. The four top maths unis in England are referred to as COWI - Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick, Imperial so all worth a look. Maths department at Warwick is fab and they actually told us they offer to anyone with a, a, b prediction though their offer is much higher than that. The university campus would not be somewhere I could live for 4 years though - very insular.

Does it all count then Senua? I had visions of her having to do new stuff. Shows I'm not very clued up on all of this!

I am learning so much from this. I looked at Warwick umpteen years ago for myself and seem to remember it felt very isolated but better than Bath which was on top of a giant hill and seemed very very cold! The application to Oxford sounds horrid!!

I can't remember and I know it is rather a way off yet, but it is one personal statement for all your uni applications isn't it?

Congratulations to your ds by the way :)

It is one PS and I think for some subjects it's hard to write so it fits all universities as some put more emphasis on extra curricular stuff than others but for Maths it's just all about Maths.

Bath is also top ten for Maths so you might not have escaped it!

Oh no!! If she goes there I will have to buy her thermals for her Christmas present!!

Hopefully she will stick with maths then as it sounds like it is one of the simpler subjects to apply for!

My brother went to Oxford to do Maths and did well in his finals. He didn't do anything extra-curricular at all, actually, apart from writing a few websites for his own amusement. He refused DoE on the grounds that it was likely to be cold and had given up all musical instruments and extra sports well before GCSE. He was just really good at Maths. I really don't think Maths departments are looking for all-rounders, based purely on his experience. I think they just want the best they can get. DB was also monosyllabic and massively unhelpful to most adults at the time (though so unpredictable that who knows what he may have said or not said at interview). When he actually got there, his tutor said 'quite honestly, your papers were so good that you'd have had to actually bite me in the interview not to be accepted'. So if your daughter is really good at Maths (and I'm sure she is if she's aiming for Oxbridge or similar) then it may not matter too much what else she does or doesn't do. Encourage her to widen her Maths experiences and to explore around the topic would be my advice.

That sounds good :) I like the sound of your DB very much!

They are not interested in Dof E, World Challenge etc .They are looking for a passion (and of course ability) in the subject.The PS should more be about their thoughts and interests in the subject

There are two things going on here. There is what they need to get into good universities- ie strings of As at GCSE and at A level. And there is what they need to become interested and interesting human beings with a "hinterland". It used to be that these two things overlapped. Nowadays they don't- but the hinterland is neglected at their peril- there is more to life than university,.

That is very true Curlew.

I would say keep going at a reasonable pace with music but also do the theory. I know someone who had Gold D of E but no offers from a University. She was bright and held a 6th form scholarship at our school. She should have walked into a University so it is not always Oxford who make odd decisions. Potential maths students also have to take the Maths pre test for Warwick and elsewhere (cannot remember the exact name) and ranking in that can determine a higher or lower offer. It is clear on the web site so teaching is required for that. (I know independent schools give it!). Also, Further Maths is good. Physics and Chemistry are also good at A level for Maths students. Also, not just As at GCSE, As, and lots of schools would not support Oxbridge with less than 6 As. I also know Oxford sets maths questions at their interviews and test how a student thinks about the questions as well as getting the answer right of course. There is huge competition from gifted Mathematicians from all over the world. However, go for it. You may find she likes Economics or Engineering when she is older though. Never rule anything out. I would start looking at subject open days at Oxbridge for year 10/11 though so you get a chance to ask questions and see if these courses suit your DD.

senua oh undoubtedly DoE is excellent experience - and it may well count more with employers than universities (and I can't speak for non-Oxbridge university admissions so I'll reserve judgement on that). However, for Oxbridge we pretty much discount DoE (and music exams too - it's nice for the applicant to have grade 8 or whatever, but we do not even take that kind of thing into consideration). There are two main (interlinked) reasons - the first is that we really are only looking for ability, existing knowledge and potential in the subject - which is only fair really, since what we are after is to admit the academically most able as far as we can, regardless of who they are or what background they come from. It's the fairest thing for us to do, surely.

And the second reason is linked to this as well, which is that we are very aware that extracurriculars like DoE and advanced music are only available to some students - usually those with (normally good) schools that offer them, or middle-class or reasonably well off parents. (Most comps haven't the faintest clue about gold DoE and a lot of our applicants from the state sector have not had any access to DoE or any opportunity to pursue music to grade 8. Both DoE and advanced music are expensive things, as are many sports.) So we would be pretty unfair to take these kind of accomplishments into consideration in our admissions process. We spend a lot of time making very detailed assessments of the applicant's subject work and weighing up the school background and teaching quality against what we can see of the academic record and potential, so it would be unfair of us to bring nonacademic interests into that.

I do take your point about skills like time management, resilience, commitment etc., but we normally assess those skills through things like the submitted written work, school reference, exam record, pattern of module UMS marks (do they dip in some subjects or in some exams? Are there any planned retakes?) and so on. If anything, too many extracurriculars on the application might make us scrutinise the UMS marks more just to check the student isn't spreading him or herself too thinly. It can be sometimes a little counterproductive to overstress extracurriculars (eg. an applicant for English might think that lots of extracurricular drama might impress the interviewers, but the interviewers in reality are worrying that the student would arrive and do no work because of being in plays all the time! Same with sports, etc.)

All of that is just to say, really, that applicants should not get too worried about extracurricular achievements because subject interest and ability is our main focus. But they shouldn't give up things they enjoy and want to do just for an Oxbridge application either! It's important for a student to be happy, and not to feel they have missed out on the social and personal part of being at sixth form by working themselves into the ground. And a talent for something like music can really be enjoyed at university when they get there, so I don't think students should moulder away doing only academic work. But they shouldn't worry about putting it on the university application.

The MAT taken in the autumn of y13 is used by oxford and imperial, not Warwick as stated above.

Cambridge, Warwick and other universities such as Bristol and Bath make offers that include STEP which is taken in the summer of Y13.

At least this has been the case for admissions this year. It's a bit of a minefield but the maths department at your daughter's school should know the system, though I think preparation for the extra exams is variable. There are plenty of past papers so straightforward to get to grips with them on your own if you are motivated.

Maths has the highest offers of any course and I think this is because all good mathematicians can achieve A* in Maths and Further Maths A levels without really breaking a sweat so the universities are pushed to find ways to differentiate.

My DS did MFL and Music along with Maths and it hasn't prevented him from getting offers. However he is definitely in the minority in his further Maths class where most are studying physics, chemistry, economics.

The law of unintended consequences seems to be in operation in up this area.

It's fantastic that the universities are no longer selecting on criteria that are impossible for many to achieve and on academic excellence alone.

However, it is a real shame that many kids now seem to be dropping lots of the wonderful things they used to do in 6th form because they won't help them with their university applications.

Sorry, not particularly helpful for the OP- I was just musing. OYBK- does your dd's school do the EPQ?

I don't know what that is curlew - I shall google! I don't think so though.

Dd goes to a large comp with a small 6th form. One of the decisions she/we will need to make I guess in 18 months is whether to keep her there or move her to another much larger state 6th form that has a better success rate with getting kids into top unis. She loves her present school. I have no idea what the best thing is? Keep her in the school she loves and give her the opportunity to help out lower down in the school and be part of the community she already knows , or send her to the very well honed uni factory.

I understand the point about it being possible that children who have access to music and music exams having an unfair advantage. Dd is very fortunate. We aren't particularly well off - we do without stuff so that she can persue her hobbies, but there are very many more people for whom it would be impossible. She loves music theory, came out of her last exam with a huge grin on her face.

I guess we will be asking her school whether they can provide support with STEP and MAT (do people do both??).

Is going to open days next year not too early?

Back on your question about DofE: DD did her three sections under three different assessors (Guides and two different schools). They all allowed her to use existing sports, hobbies, etc towards the Award, she didn't need something new. However it had to be on-going from the date the section started, she couldn't use back-dated experience.

Aaaww. You were all chillaxed on Tuesday. You're fretting again now.

just place marking as this is really interesting reading.

OYBBK I think your DD ought to be given a place just on the basis of rewarding you for your services to Mumsnet!

Fabulous advice on this thread especially from georgettemagritte who clearly really knows her stuff! Just some further random thoughts

• choice of school shouldn't matter as Oxbridge admissions folk will always look at the school and take into account their track record of getting people in. But only let her stay where she is if they can truly teach her top flight Maths.
• for getting in, all that matters is her Maths, but for the rest of life other things matter too.
• At her age I was adamant I would be studying Maths at university but in the end I took a level Economics and fell in love with it so ended up doing that, so do encourage her to be broad minded too
• get organised, attend open days early but also look out for access courses in the summer holidays - your dd is exactly the sort of person they are aimed at. A chance to spend a few days in a college and be exposed to teaching.
• you need to balance encouraging her ambitions with making her realise Oxbridge isn't the be all and end all for Maths - imperial or Warwick equally well rated
• Cambridge Maths in particular is extremely stretching. If you love Maths and are exceptional fine but I know people who regret having gone there as they could not do well as it was so tough and feel if they had gone anywhere else they would have done much better
• I believe for Oxbridge you have to do the STEP exam and this is much more important than A levels though you have to do well in those too. I heard only one in three pass STEP though I can't believe that...but I do know very very bright kids who didn't. I will discourage my own dd away from Maths for this reason unless she truly convinces me she has to do Maths and nothing else

And in the meantime, the better her GCSEs and then ASs the better, so encourage her to focus on these (and don't go for quantity go for quality, though remember further Maths isn't viewed as a full A2 so she will need four subjects at a2): and make sure at the same time she doesn't get stressed, over anxious and continues to have lots of fun. It's a hard balancing act for a parent!!!

for getting in, all that matters is her Maths, but for the rest of life other things matter too.

Nicely put.

I believe for Oxbridge you have to do the STEP exam and this is much more important than A levels though you have to do well in those too. I heard only one in three pass STEP though I can't believe that...but I do know very very bright kids who didn't. I will discourage my own dd away from Maths for this reason unless she truly convinces me she has to do Maths and nothing else.

I believe that the two Oxbridge systems are quite different. For Oxford (as mysteryfairy describes above) they set their own exam in Michaelmas term of Y13, as a first sift before interviews. Once you have your offer it is a fairly easy ride to getting the expected A Level results the following summer.
Cambridge, conversely, do their interviews first but make offers based on A Levels and STEP which are sat next summer. It is not unknown for students to get the A Levels but miss the STEP requirements - i.e. fall at the last hurdle.

Thanks Sensua . That's reassuring to hear about Oxford Maths as somehow it seems better to be screened out early rather than as you say fall at the last hurdle.

Great thread.

I work at Oxbridge (rather not say which one) and have recently seen the selection process in action. It's fascinating!

The issue of non-subject interests is keenly debated. There are those who have no interest whatsoever in what their students do outside their academic subject, but there are some who are.

I'd say those outside interests don't often swing it, unless they're a. really quite unusual and/or b. they coincide with the interests of the admissions tutor by happenchance .

Let's be honest here, the interests of a seventeen year old often reflect their parents background and their school environment. Taking into account that someone plays the harp or is in the county lacrosse team is probably unfair in the scheme of things.

That's not to say my university don't encourage a 'hinterland'. They do. Lots and lots of wonderful stuff on offer here - drama, art, music, sports, volunteering...you name it! It's often interesting to see what students actually choose to do when they're away from home!

However, the terms are short and absurdly intense. A much larger percentage of the working day has to be spent on academic work, than would at some other universities. That's just the reality.

Oh, and (I'm sure you will) make sure she knows that the chances of getting into Oxbridge are statistically slim- and there are loads of other fantastic places. My dd didn't get the AS levels she needed for a credible application (coupled with excellent but not stellar GCSEs) and had to readjust her ideas. But she now has 4 offers from excellent universities and is waiting to hear from the 5th. She bounced back very quickly! One of her school friends has focused solely on Oxford for a long time, and has found not getting a place very difficult indeed.

Every year lots and lots of fabulous applicants don't get offered a place. There are just too many of them!

It is a lottery to some extent.

That said, I do think some applicants would just be much happier elsewhere. It's a very odd set up in some ways. Very intense.