2014 Oxbridge applicants - a question

[Roisin]

Can anyone advise on numbers of subjects?

ds1 is in yr12; he will do A level Maths this year and AS Biology, Chemistry and Physics.

Next year he will do A2 in Further Maths and at least two sciences.

He is capable, and is currently predicted, A in all subjects (got A for GCSE In all his exams) and is currently aiming for Cambridge.

The question is, would he be disadvantaging his application if he dropped a subject in the summer: ie ended up with 4 A levels instead of 5, 3 of them taken in 2015?

He should be capable of top grades in all subjects even if he drops one, but I'm sure he will have "more of a life" next year and will be less stressed and more pleasant to live with if he drops one.

Oxford/Cambridge will only make offers on 3 subjects (e.g. A*AA) so it won't disadvantage him at all to drop one, may even be an advantage as he won't be spread too thinly.

My offer was based on a specific combination of 3 of my 4 subjects, so doing a 4th was definitely not an advantage as I still had to get 3 specific grades!

It was a while ago, but I enquired about dropping a subject after my offer, and was told they had made the offer based on my whole set (although asking for three As). I'd therefore recommend dropping before the application or not at all.

It's easier to get three As of three than three of five, you see.

Studying Maths, FM and Physics is not as much work as studying three different unrelated subjects. My DS did 5 AS levels last year including these three and then dropped the non-sciency one for Y13. I would also add that he finds his workload not as hard as his friends who are studying three essay subjects

It is a question for the admissions tutor when he applies. If he is applying for natsci/maths/engineering I cannot see why they should have an issue. The usual fear is that someone will drop maths and forget everything.

If his subjects were very diverse it might be more of an issue because then 'the set' may count. You can imagine the problem - if he wanted to do French and applied with French, German, Maths, Chemistry and Music and then dropped the German suddenly the set does not look like it will prepare him so well for a French degree.

But to be sure ask admissions. They will be used to this kind of question and it absolutely will not prejudice his application.

Workload at Cambridge is very intense, so maybe not slacking off is better preparation for it?

But hench, it is intense but focussed, and in my experience it is easier to learn that focus earlier than at uni when there are so many other things to do! There'll be lots of subject reading to be done before the start of 1st year if he does get in, valuable to have some time for that too.

depends if having 'more of a life' involves more independent focussed study (in which case better preparation) or if it means more partying, gaming and vegging out, in which case getting back into working to capacity again will come harder I guess Anna. One of my dc had a very intense yr 12, slackened off a lot in yr 13 and found the transition to university massive - it's hard to get back in the habit of knuckling down once you get out of it. The extra qualification probably isn't needed, but the work habit is. It depends a lot on how much 4A levels will stretch him.

If he can do extra in the way of relevant to his degree subject volunteering or work (such as tutoring or helping in a younger class) would that help his prospects? Then he can show real dedication in what he wants to do.

Thanks all: yes, he's currently thinking of natural sciences, though still dithering about which route. Fortunately we're not far from Cambridge, so he's arranged to do a couple of taster days, which hopefully will help clarify his thoughts.

If he were to drop one, he'd drop either Biology or Physics, depending on which route he's chosen. But he is very interested in both, hence the hesitation, but he's got to specialize at some stage.

My DS is in Y13 and has just had an offer from Cambridge.

In Y12 he did 5 subjects, the same ones as your DS.
The workload for 5 subjects was enormous. He is very able but to get top grades at A level requires hard work as well. Many students who get A* in GCSEs find this to their cost.

He goes to an ordinary 6th form college and was strongly advised against doing 5 subjects, (better 4 good grades than 5 average ones was the argument).
Anyway he got 5 good grades at AS level but has dropped Biology at A2.
His offer from Cambridge is based on 3 A levels, not the 4 he is taking and they have specified which ones/grades.

As none of the unis who have made offers are interested in more than 3 subjects I think he should drop the 4th subject to give himself chance to focus on the others, but he disagrees.

Our DS is at a normal sixth form too - but while they discourage students from doing more than 3 subjects to A2, they make an exception for doing Further Maths as a fourth subject. Because of the overlap DS found the 5 AS levels hard work but manageable (and still had a Saturday job, did sports, music lessons and had a great social life in Yr 12). I think if they really want to do it and have enough support it's do-able. They do need to work really hard and consistently to keep on top of it all though.

SHould have said - DS's five were similar to yours - M, FM, Physics, Chem but with History instead of Biology.

My DS is also a Y13 with an Oxford offer. He did five AS levels in Y12 including Maths and Further Maths but also MFL and Music. I suspect his work load was probably slightly more than your DS - he says physics would have virtually been a free AS for him. He loved all his subjects and struggled to drop one but his school which sends a significant number to Oxbridge every year counselled him very strongly that he needed to.

At his Oxford interview for Maths nearly everyone was only doing four subjects and a significant number were doing only three so I don't think less than five is a disadvantage. The universities would actually be discriminating against many candidates who attend institutions that can't timetable for five if they saw five as an advantage.

Your DS choosing between physics and biology is a separate issue I think. If he does apply for natural sciences he will have to indicate his specialism by the UCAS deadline on 15th October so only keeps his options open for an extra six weeks.

Also if you declare you are entered for exams on your UCAS form you have to tell the universities if you subsequently withdraw so they can reconsider your application even if what you withdraw from is not part of your offer. (This info is from DS and he says it would be unlikely to change anything but not worth the stress of putting yourself in that position.)

Final thought is that my DS taught himself some extra maths modules last year. At the end of Y13 he will have definitely an AS in additional further maths, possibly an A level depending on how many more modules he gets through this year. He was able to include in his PS/school ref (not sure where it went) that he had self taught modules and achieved 100 UMS and that this demonstrated his aptitude for independent study at university. If maths comes easily to your son perhaps he could do this across the remainder of Y12 and Y13 - really was not a lot of extra work for my DS to do but demonstrates the skills the universities are looking for.

Thanks for all the comments : really helpful.

Purple Potato, I'm not clear from your post. Did your ds do 5 A2 in the end or 4?

I think in some ways the added complication is that ds's school do the 6 Maths A Level modules in the first year, then the 6 FM modules the following year; so technically they do Maths A2 in yr12 andFM A2 in yr 14. But the end effect is the same - the end up with 12 modules over two years and 2 A Levels.

So I guess what you're all saying unanimously is that he needs to make his decisions as to which one to drop. Atm he is particularly enjoying Biology (as well as Chemistry and Maths), but he finds he has to do a lot more work for Biology than for the other subjects.

Hi Roisin, sorry I wasn't clear. DS did 5 AS levels then dropped History at the end of Yr12 and is taking 4 to A2 level (M, FM, Ph and Chem)

OP my son did the all the Maths in Y12 and is doing the FM in Y13. there are several advantages to this.

Roisin, my DS has just started at Cambridge reading VetMed. He was doing five A levels at his school including the Further Maths, so the same set as your DS. We were given VERY good advice, which DS ignored, which was that Cambridge only look at three A levels as to do otherwise means that they are comparing apples with pears because some candidates will have gone to schools which will only offer three. Secondly he was advised he absolutely didn't need further maths if he was set on being a vet. Result, he dropped ONE module out of all his AS (in maths A2) which meant his application didn't look as strong as it would have done had he not taken the Maths A a year early. In the end, despite great BMAT, he had to reapply with his grades. Luckily he then took advice and dropped the maths, meaning that he could concentrate on getting 3A* in the sciences, and he got in second time around. My advice would be - absolutely concentrate on the top three A levels, and unless he is intending to need the FM later on (career in investment banking, for example), then he is not disadvantaged; if anything the reverse will apply.

If he decides he wants to do Physics then not having FM would be a disadvantage - not necessarily on application, but in first year. Worth a thought.

Agreed Horatia - when we went to a Physics Open Day at Oxford they spoke at some length about the advantages of having FM as a fourth. They can't insist on it, because some schools don't offer it and so it wouldn't be fair to. But they did say that first years who arrive without FM have to do an awful lot of catching up in the first term, on top of the normal workload.

In short, I think if your son thinks he might like to study Physics (or Physical Natural Sciences), then keeping the FM would be very wise.

DS applied to Oxford to read Engineerig Science and found that having studied FM was definitely advantageous when it came to the interview questions. No doubt about it whatsoever.

He did 6 AS levels, then dropped 2 for year 13, to concentrate on M, FM, Phys and Chem. This has been quite achievable, despite participating in lots of music etc outside of college.

There always seems to be a tinge of regret surrounding the subjects he dropped, though. He would have really loved to have continued with them.

I don't actually know if any of this is relevant to you - it's past my bedtime and I'm rambling!

DD's another one with who did Maths AS and A2 in Y12 as well as 3 other ASs. She also has an offer from Oxford.

She has actually dropped FM this year and is continuing with her three other subjects.
Friends of hers who have an offer from Cambridge for NatSci have their offer based on the 3 A2s they are taking in Y13, so the maths taken at the end of Y12 is not part of their offer. However, none of them have an offer based on 4 A2s taken at the end of Y13 (which is a good thing as the school does not allow this)!

This is all extremely helpful: thank you.

I'm involved with admissions but not as much on the science side, so you should also seek advice from the admissions tutors at a couple of colleges before your D'S decides (choose admissions tutors who are themselves scientists to ask).

However, if your DS is aiming for Natsci, I would suggest that he not drop further maths - it is less work than a completely different A-level and the compulsory maths component in the Natsci tripos really needs that level of maths for him to cope comfortably with it. To take many of the options within Natsci (eg physics), he would need the further maths as a support.

Second, think carefully about which outed within the degree he is most interested in. Physical Natsci has a reputation for being pretty hard-core, but if he thinks he might be at all interested in following that route, he should aim to keep the maths, further maths, physics and chemistry. It's a lot easier to switch to biological Natsci routes with physics and chemistry A-levels than to physical Natsci without physics / chemistry. Biology is on the whole a more enjoyable A-level in some ways, but it's probably less essential to the Natural Sciences Tripos than the others, all of which would stand him in excellent stead for any of the options within the Tripos. If you're looking just to cut down on workload, I'd suggest getting rid of Biology at A2 and focusing on the maths, further maths, physics and chemistry. Depending on what options he's taking within physics that can overlap a great deal with maths and further maths too, further reducing the workload. But it's the maths and further maths that is really crucial, so don't let him drop that if he can avoid it. So much of the Natsci Tripos is dependent on mathematical knowledge and ability that losing further maths would really constrain his options later on in the course.

I hope that helps - as I say though, make sure to speak to a couple of sciency admissions tutors before making a final decision.

*route not outed!

A further aspect that he might want to think about is that chemistry is normally more useful for any biological Natsci option than actual biology - and this particularly holds true if he is in any way interested in medicine or medical science (such as a fast-track medicine graduate conversion degree in the future, in which an A-level in chemistry is one of the compulsory criteria).