Phd and work?

[Yes2014]

Hi I think I know the answer to this! Am full time at work, single mum and no savings. Did an am and got a distinction, and am being encouraged to continue the research into a phd BUT the funding, if I got it, would be too little to live on- don't think I could get any extra money. Also, am old.
Am really excited about the possible research, would LOVE to do it- but 3 years on nothing and no career afterwards makes it just a pipe dream. It's impossible isn't it.. Couldn't do it and work f/t.
Has anyone done it?
Or are there ways of making more money?
Would be throwing away a solid career for what?

If you are an arts student (at least, all those I know), you do have demands on your time but it is extremely flexible. You won't necessarily have a lab to go to; you might be able to spend 90% of your time at home with an internet connection

Very true -- although if you do do that, you'll miss out on a lot of what a PhD is about, and it will be more difficult to get an academic job eventually.

Because all & any learning is collaborative, even at PhD level. So you run the risk of missing form,al research seminars, informal discussion groups & reading groups, and the informal conversations in corridors and at the coffee machine.

To get a job in the arts & humanities after your PhD, you'll generally need to have done some teaching as a PhD student -- this requires you to be present.

And MargratGarlik is so so so right about the workload. In the humanities as well as the sciences.

I do wish that the general image of academics was not that of sitting around and cycling home for afternoon tea. I've just eaten my lunch now, in the first break I've had since starting at 8am -- my diary was back to back until 6pm. And there are 30 essays on my desk at home to be marked by Monday ...

I have taught; I've gone to conferences, and I think I do collaborate. An awful lot of collaboration and chat happens electronically.

I'm a bit stunned if 10% of anyone's time is spent at conferences - you surely don't go to one ever couple of weeks, it would be ridiculously expensive.

Sorry, I didn't mean to snap, and I expect you are right 90% is a bit high.

I agree it is worth being aware both of the 'up front' workload of writing a thesis and of the workload you need to do to maximise your job chances.

It's just not necessarily the case that your supervisors will be expecting you to clock in and clock out of a study room and I do think arts is much more flexible than sciences.

I should also add, most PhD supervisors would be none too happy with a postgrad who came in at give 9am and left at 3pm to pick up the kids. In most departments, PhD students (and staff) will be in by 8.30am at the latest - at my old department, meetings often started at 8am. People will usually leave around 6 or 6.30pm. Coming in at weekends is quite normal too. This is especially true of science PhDs where you are expected to in the lab the majority of The time. Your working days are also not term-time only, so you would need to factor in childcare for school holidays.

I do therefore think you need to really look at the reality of life as a PhD student and decide from a work-life balance perspective as well as a financial perspective, if you think it is workable. There is no way I could have done my PhD when I had children, though obviously some people do manage, clearly. In reality you will be unlikely to spend leisurely mornings cycling them to school before popping into university for a couple of hours in the library and then collecting them at 3pm.

I think the general point is that even though you need not be 'clocking in' in a study room at 8/9am in the morning, the point is you will need to be putting in that time and effort. There are some fields where it's ok to roll in at 11am, but you work till 9pm...

You will be expected to attend research seminars (held weekly) and other events say at faculty level as well (interdisciplinary research meetings, grant writing workshops etc).

Thinking about it more: I would say that it is probably more helpful to acknowledge there might be difficulties, but to proffer support in recognising that these are gendered structural difficulties - that are not God-given, but man-made. As such, they can be challenged.

So give OP support in recognising problems are not down to her, failing as an individual but are invisible discriminations, that should be removed.

I have a PhD - I wouldn't do one unless it was necessary for my career. Is there an option of doing it by publication rather than a traditional thesis?

On a separate but perhaps relevant note... We had an internationalisation strategy meeting today... And well, some of the stuff presented by the male lead was interesting.

Essentially saying that internationalisation is a great thing, not just about having foreign students in our classrooms but also things like visiting professorships (coming here and going overseas), Erasmus type exchanges, etcetera.

But of course there's no talk about how that might work for those with responsibilities for children. I'm quite fortunate in that I have young kids (5, 3) but my dh doesn't travel so he's around. We don't have family around. But how about those who can't travel for family reasons? Will they be discriminated against (say they can't attend conferences or do an exchange programme)? Should they?

I don't know the answer...

Thinking about it more: I would say that it is probably more helpful to acknowledge there might be difficulties, but to proffer support in recognising that these are gendered structural difficulties - that are not God-given, but man-made. As such, they can be challenged

Of course. And there are many women who bear the brunt of child rearing responsibilities who do PhDs and have good careers.

But the OP seems to me to have a rather unrealistic view of the workload of a PhD student, and I think we're trying to warn her about the workload and the extreme challenge of a PhD. The OP also seems to think that it is a well-paid route to work. A current PhD studentship pays £13,700 odd plus your tuition fees.

A lot (too many, IME) of people think that as they've done OK in a Masters, they'll just do more of the same with a PhD.

That is not true. And I happen to think it's far better to go into such a big, and resource heavy (student's time, supervisor's time, university & state investment) enterprise with eyes wide open. There are a lot of things which are far easier and pay a lot better than PhD research.

And the knowledge of the workload & the expectations is why I suggested looking at a part-time candidature.

I got teaching and research jobs while doing a funded phd, there was lots of work about because phd students are a cheap option compared to taking on full time staff. I managed to double my 'salary' and even start a pension. That was a few years ago though, so it might have changed.

My phd was history, you don't have to be present in the university much for that - you should be in the archives after all. The weekly research seminar was all I was expected to attend & (free) dinner afterwards. Not as much fun as it sounds, however.

Agree a PhD is not a route into a good job, and the workload can easily become impossible if you let it. Quite different from an MA in that respect.

Procrastinating I did my PhD while teaching full-time at the same university. Didn't have a child till the end of my candidature, although I was widowed when my DS was 3 so have done the rest of my career as a single parent. It can be done. I had a tenured job, and the DS came everywhere with me.

Yes, it can be done. It is a kind of vocation for me, but I wouldn't have missed out on having children for an academic career even though it is bloody hard and I have no life outside of work and family (I have 30 essays on my desk too!). Most older female academics I meet have chosen not to have families. You learn not to mention your children.

Sorry to hear about your husband UptheChimney, you have done incredibly well to continue.

It varies between departments and subjects. No one in my dept would notice what time I arrived or left. I'm a researcher now but did my phd in the same dept. You need to put the work in but when you work is up to you. My dept are v accommodating to flexible working and understand if you have a child ill or similar issue.

I wouldn't give up your job expecting good money and job security post phd if you want to go into academia!

Ok, I will take another run at this because I explained badly.

Say you spend 40 hours a week working for a PhD- and I doubt many people do; I think it's more like 50-60.

So perhaps you teach for two hours. And you go to a couple of seminars. And you nip into the library for half an hour to get your books.

You can still spend the other more than 90% of your time at home. Yes, I'm sure this isn't perfect and I'm sure that if you tell yourself 'oh, I'll be home every day to pick up the kids and I'll work til midnight when they're asleep' you will end up struggling to achieve it and dropping behind.

But when are you meant to have kids?

And on a related note where are these lovely, supportive departments where you can teach at the drop of a hat and go to umpteen dozen seminars?

My point was not about whether there is inherent sexism within academia or not (there undoubtly is), but that doing a PhD should be viewed with the same professional attitude to doing a full time job. Childcare must be in place, because being a professional you can not and should not expect your work to fit into school hours. If meetings are held during normal working hours, it is unprofessional and demonstrates a lack of commitment to refuse to attend because the meeting is outside school hours. This is particularly true if the project is funded - some of my PhD students were funded by industry and were paid a tax free bursary of £23k - the competition for those places was high and whilst I didn't even look at whether students had children or not before deciding to take them on, I would expect students to treat the studentship with the same professionalism that they would give to a full time job.

I am resolutely feminist and was also on the University Equality and Diversity committee in my last institution. However, I do not think it is inherently sexist to say if you are making a commitment to do something full-time (whether that be work or study) the reality is you need to make childcare provisions. You cannot be full-time and expect to put in only school hours of work. If you want to put it only school hours of work you need to do your work part-time and accept that there are down sides to that too. Academia is hard, but public perception is that there is lots of sitting around thinking of ideas. I was answering reviewers comments on a grant 2 days after my C-section with ds2 and attending progress meetings with my PhD students and postdocs within 6 weeks of him being born. I published 4 papers during my maternity leave with ds1 too. This is not unusual and like it or not, one person will not change that working culture.

Further, in science, the nature of some experiments means staying in the lab significantly later on some nights.

I'd also agree with the comment that learning is collaborative. I encouraged my research group to work very closely together, as did my PhD supervisor. This meant the group learned as much from each other as from me (and made very close, possibly lifelong friendships). Those students who progressed most slowly were the ones who chose not to fully integrate in the group.

I'm sorry. I had no intention of sounding as if I thought it was acceptable to miss any kind of committment. I was simply trying to explain that, in my subject, there are few of these. The fact that teaching and workroom space are highly competitive in my department shows me that people do want these things, but there isn't enough for everyone all of the time. And that includes people with children: they're not opting out. Nor are there constant meetings PhD students are entitled to attend.

Obviously, you need to attend meetings. I completely understand that a student needs to treat a PhD as a fulltime job. That was more or less my point when I observed that 40 hours a week isn't likely to cut it. Of course I know that lecturers have busier lives, and that it is extremely difficult to get to that stage anyway.

But I think the OP is very new to even thinking about this, and she doesn't know if she wants to go into academia - so this is a lot to take on board, and I do think it is far to acknowledge that, just during the PhD, there are some positive aspects.

One of my colleagues who is on the SSLT finished a PhD recently while working full time. Obviously he hadn't a full teaching timetable but it was doable for him. This was distance learning with a university abroad. Our school is very supportive of teachers who want to do CPD in this form and even give a grant towards it. Have you spoken to your school, would they consider reducing your timetable temporarily or letting you have a sabbatical?

Having a PhD would give you an edge if you were applying to international schools. In the best ones the pay and conditions are very good indeed. Would you consider working abroad?

Wow this thread is an eye opener. I am going to have to rethink. I will finish my MA and I have also been toying with the idea of finishing a taught MSc that I have gained a lot of credit on instead of the PhD. There is no research focus at the college I teach in so the PhD would be more about progression up the management food chain. We have a huge teaching load right up to degree level but no postgrads so the MA was enough of a challenge. The PhD sounds like a complete no no. Very interesting.

I would agree with margrat about the collaborative learning bit. I'm in the social sciences so no labs per se.... But the best phd students I've come across (whether my own or externally supervised) are those who are involved in academia as much as their professors are... Or sometimes even more.

So the students who are around so that we chat in corridors or at lunch... Those who attend the research seminars and therefore catch up on the research as well as other peoples activities... Those who help teach/demonstrate etc. and of course, these tend to take place during office hours 9-5 at the very least if not 8-6.

These tend to be thought of when there are new projects or opportunities too.. I know it sounds unmeritocratic (possibly) but it is about showing that you are keen and able.

OP, if you work in teaching (or any other kind of education-based work), would your employer support you doing a Professional Doctorate in Education (EdD)? A lot of institutions that offer MPhil/PhD also offer this as a route to doctoral qualification.
Because Professional Doctorates are practice-based, they're usually part-time and students work in cohorts at the outset, so less isolated than the traditional PhD.
I disagree with Magrat above, that 'most PhD supervisors' are 'none too happy' with students coming in at hours that suit them. The supervisors I work with in my job (outs self comprehensively) are always flexible and don't expect students to be on the premises more than a few hours a week, although they are still looking for timely completion (3 years fulll-time, 6 years part-time). However, the field I work in is Social Sciences/Humanities and I know lab-based full-time science courses would have entirely different expectations.

Also, Professional Doctorates usually have their block study days, seminars, etc., organised to take place in school holidays, at weekends, or in the evenings.

I think there are ways of showing you are keen and able other than being physically present in a specific building. I agree about seminars.

But the OP hasn't said any of the things attributed to her. She's not saying 'I won't bother with seminars' and she's not saying 'I won't work past 3.30pm'.

I understand that people are trying to make her aware that time commitments might be longer and less flexible than she expects and I agree that all the advice about collaboration and so on is good in general. But there are alternatives - probably not as good, but worth thinking about their merits.

• She could participate in or start up an online reading group with the other new PhDs. They'd have a written record to refer back to, unlike a conversation, and it'd help her bond with them.

• She could get herself on twitter and talk about her research. Loads of new PhDs do that, and you get to know your peers in other countries.

• She could get into the habit of emailing people who write interesting research when she has real questions. It's easy to avoid that if your supervisor is right down the hall to chat to, so you need to push yourself not to rely just on them.

• She could invite the other PhDs over to her. Some of them will actually value that and be grateful - they will feel lonely too.

• She could make sure that, when she does attend conferences and seminars, she's the person who pushes herself to talk to the academics, so that people remember her and her time really counts.

I know these are good tips even if you are physically present in the research building and would make you even better. But they are also difficult tips and the downside of a tight little community is that you may not learn to be so independent or to push yourself so hard. So these are ways to make it all a bit more time-flexible.

I do think it is far to acknowledge that, just during the PhD, there are some positive aspects

Absolutely right, LRD, and that's why I always say to prospective PhD candidates that you've really got to want to do a PhD more than anything else, because otherwise it's too much like hard work, and just too difficult.

You need also to be driven, and to enjoy research and being driven. It's an odd bundle of characteristics: it's far far less to do with brilliance (I was not the most brilliant of my PhD cohort, but I'm by far the most successful as an academic) as with stickability and stubbornness.

But I loved it, and I mostly love my job.

There are real issues about gender expectations and life patterns though. Even setting aside the long working hours and the demand for presentism in the sciences My very best friend whose career has been really solidly successful and she could go further if she anted to she's just been headhunted to one the best places for her research -- is childless, and has struggled with that.

She sees herself as 'socially infertile." She met the wrong man at the wrong time I think and he mucked around with demanding her commitment and then dumping her 4 years later at the point that they were talking about marriage & children (she was just finishing her PhD). She's been pretty much single ever since it's hard for high flying women in academia to have decent personal lives unless those are established before they start the high flying bit, from what I've seen. I don't get it as she's lovely, but I don't really get men either! But I did have the husband & child so I do tend to count my blessings there (It was 20 years ago so is a painful thing but the grief hasn't not acute for a while now). And having one's husband die suddenly is a visible reason for being single IYSWIM so I got a lot of support and sympathy. My friend just tends to get the stupid advice to single people which I can deflect by talking of my dead husband -- you know "Get out there" "There'll always be someone" etc etc.

As someone said upthread a lot of female academics are single and childless. I think it's a really tough sacrifice to have to make for the work & I never ever played the I'm a parent so I'm more busy/tired/important" thing because I knew how painful this can be for people like my dear friend. It takes an extraordinary man (for a straight couple) to put aside his career for the demands of academia. Most of my colleagues have wives at home, or have wives doing far less demanding (and lower status) jobs. I can't help despising those choices, if I'm being utterly honest.

Oops I was trying to be positive ... I guess the thing is that I still think the last 25 years has been worth it! And my DS has been part of a really exciting life and seen a lot of places, and he's seen how sustaining a vocation (rather than a job) can be.

I'm sorry for your loss. I should have said that upthread, too. And I can't imagine how hard that must have been.

Good to hear how that was for your DS, which is a positive I'd not thought of.

I agree about the brilliance issue. The most brilliant student in my MA cohort dropped out of his PhD after two months because he hated it.