Disappointed - brother ready to bin university. Should I try to dissuade him?

[Beetle73]

Darling brother is 3 years into a 4 year course. Lots of debt and is certain he has failed a module this year. Apparently this means he would have to change course next year, and generally he doesn't seem to believe that he can pass overall.

I don't honestly know whether his poor performance is due to not being good enough, or not trying hard enough - he says he's had a great time, and while he's no genius, he seems bright enough to me.

He and my mother seem to think that amassing another year of debt if he's not going to pass is a waste of time.

I don't want to be the preachy older sister, and obviously I'm not the one bearing the financial burden, but I am REALLY disappointed about this.

It seems to me that:

1. giving up on something aged 21 is a really bad start. Especially if you don't have any clear idea about what to do instead.

2. Giving up might actually be worse than failing - at least if you fail, you know. If you give up then you'll always wonder.

3. It will look really bad to employers.

Any thoughts? Should I keep my oar out? If not, anyone have any compelling arguments?

hmmm, tricky.

well for one thing, he should wait and see if he actually has failed this course. and if so, if there's any way he can retake parts of it.

you're right it will look bad to employers and it does seem a shame after 3 years. plus ime 9 outn of 10 university failures are down to not enough work.

but just nagging him probably won't work. if I were you i'd probably just have a discussion about it with him - why did he fail (if he did)? why would this other course be so bad? etc. might help.

ps. yes, agree about the giving up/failing thing.

I dropped out of college (A levels) at 17 but went back after 6 months. i think part of the reason I dropped out was because up to that point I'd never failed anything in my life (well, except sport stuff). going back was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I am very glad I did.

See if you can focus on the financial side - he is 3 years in with 3 years debt and if he folds now he will be owing however many thousands it is for nothing

Even if he has failed a module resitting it would be far more worthwhile than giving up.

Would he get on better with the Open University?

His courses up til now could be traded in for OU points towards a degree. He'd have to do the rest of his degree studying at home. He'd come out with an honours degree just like from any other uni, but without any more debt, hopefully. People usually do 1/2 time study, while working at the same time.

student debt is very depressing.

What about getting him to think about the worst thing that can happen in each scenario.
I was sort of there in my post graduate studies and part of it was about having to leave with a failed label. If you can pretend to yourself that if you leave early you might have passed - well that for some of us is easier than having 'officially' failed. Get him to think how he would feel if he did actually fail - might not feel as bad as he thinks and would give him the strength to continue.

If he was in his first year I would say ditch it - but so far in we all know it makes sense to see it through.

Uni really isn't for everyone. This whole 'target' of getting 50% of people thru uni is ridiculous.

If I had to do it over again, I'd have taken a LOOOOONNGGG time off before uni.

More and more people in the US are now university educated.

I cannot tell you how many of them are doing something entirely unrelated to their degree course or who re-trained in something different.

Uni will always be there.

Thanks Senora and JanH. You obviously think I should get involved. I think I know I should. I need to speak directly to him, rather than through my mum. I really don't even know how to start. We live in different towns, we're 11 years apart, and though we're very devoted to each other, I don't see him often enough to have a really natural 'big' conversation.
I think I need to know - the size of the debt - how much it's on his mind, and how much my mum is spending on him.
Why he thinks he has done so badly
What he would do if he gave up
Whether he's going to have a really horrible year if he goes back just to knuckle down, but still feel like he's not keeping up.

That's really interesting Nightynight. That's a very constructive option to put to him. I didn't know that.

EIS - I agree - I certainly would have put a lot more into uni if I'd gone later. But now he's gone this far, as a supposed grown-up I know just how short a year is, and how worthwhile it will be just to dig in and get finished.

Mog - interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way round.

I failed a module in my second year but had the option to resit which I did and still ended up with a good enough degree. I'd be surprised if they didn't let him resit but I guess it depends on the uni. Looking back I should have switched to a single subject degree rather than continuing with two totally new subjects, but I know I would have considered that giving up (even though I probably would have got a better grade).

My thoughts would be it's a shame to drop out so far into the course. If he wasn't capable then he would have struggled earlier on in my opinion. He needs to speak to his personal tutor as they are meant to try and help as much as possible. I think you need to try and support him as much as possible and encourage him to carry on.

He may find out that he passed the exam ... fingers crossed.

Beetle... Does your db know that he has failed a module, or does he just think that he has? And is it just one module? Most universities require 120 credits per year, and will allow students to progress without penalising them with 100 credits per year (in other words, he may be able to fail a 20-credit module and still be OK). Alternatively, there must be arrangements for resits (normally in August). He can't be thrown out or forced to change course on just one fail. He needs (a) to find out whether or not he really has failed the module he's worried about and (b) to ask about resit arrangements. Obviously I don't know what the course is, so I can't say anything very meaningful here. If he'd have to change course if he failed this module, it may be that it's a core course. Would changing course be so bad? Would it be worse than not getting a degree at all? Another option might be for him to suspend his registration for a year. He could then get some experience in the 'real world', while simultaneously revising for the exam he failed (which he should be able to retake next summer). My instinct is that he'd be mad to drop out at this stage (if it was his first year I might suggest something different) You should also explore whether there is something else altogether that's troubling him (not sure what... relationship worries, is he depressed, etc.). Also, these days university credits are meant to be portable, so he could also look into transferring to a different institution (e.g. if by living nearer home he could save some money). There are lots of possibilities. Once he has the exam results, he needs to discuss his options with someone 'in the know' (e.g. his personal tutor, or the Senior Tutor, or someone of that ilk... have different names in different places, but basically a senior academic advisor who can lay all his options on the table). It sounds to me as if he's making a snap decision based on what he feels rather than what he knows...

If it's any help, I had a similar situation with a student wishing to drop out at the end of their first year (so not exactly the same). This person was so sure that there was no way they'd pass their exams (based on what they felt) that they were determined to just walk away from the course in April. Everyone's advice was to stay - at least till the end of the year - to see what happened in the exams and to make a decision based on that. But this person was determined to leave and there was nothing we could do to prevent it. Guess what? Within a fortnight they had realised that it was a huge mistake and were begging us to have them back. The student did fail some exams, but is now resitting with a view to continuing.

beetle I agree with others that someone needs to find out the actual situation he is in - how close to failing he is.

I have to say this is the most heartfelt post I have made on MN; I was in this position at Uni at his age, and was certainly pressured by my family to stay on even though I knew I was spiralling towards failure; I wasn't assertive enough (and was probably actually depressed as well, looking back) to be clear enough with everyone about how bad it was. My course was art, and demanded expensive materials which I simply couldn't afford. My parents helped me a bit financially when they could ill afford it themselves. When I finally DID fail the finals, the guilt I felt about my parents having wasted this money was sickening to me.

I should have been clearer that staying was not the thing to do; I should have left but I was in a muddle with it all.

i have since qualified in a profession so have gone back to Uni as a mature student, part time - it suited me down to the ground, I had a lovely time and it did wonders for my self esteem. I knew where I wanted to go in life more as a mature student.

Failing my degree was a major thing for me but I haven't ever had to explain myself to employers iykwim; if he leaves your brother can say it was for family commitments or that he intends to return part time to fit in with working commitments or something. So i think what I'm trying to say is please don't assume that staying on will be the right thing for him, it might get him in a worse mess if he really is heading to failure; far better to leave than to have followed the whole course but have nothing at the end. uni is so flexible nowadays that he will be able to finish this or something on the same level, somehow and in a way that should suit him.

Thank you so much to Ellbell for such a long and knowledgeable post, and to Sparklemagic for such a personal one. And to everyone else who bothered.
For the first time ever I am going to print out your replies and show them to the people concerned. There's a lot for all of us to think about here and some good alternatives for him to consider. I can't remember when I've been so delighted with an MN response.

Beetle, agree that you need to find out a lot more about the exact circumstances (and make sure he's established the facts, too, rather than just 'thinking' he's failed). And get him to talk to his tutor/student counsellor type person.

FWIW I dropped out of my first degree but earlier on, after year one. Was the right thing to do - I'd just been on a treadmill of exam, exam, exam and was sick of it. Wanted to get out into the big bad world. Did that for a few years then one day suddenly felt like now was the right time to start studying. Went back as a 'mature' student (at the grand old age of 23), worked my socks off and enjoyed every minute of it. Got a good degree that led to a great career.

However, it is MUCH harder to do it that way round, and I did have to explain it to employers (wasn't a huge problem, but you have to have an acceptable story to tell). May be more difficult now so many people have degrees. Some opportunites are almost completely closed off if you don't. He needs to sort out why he wants to leave, whether that's the only option or whether there are others, and what he wants to do instead. That doesn't have to be an exact career path (I just wanted to live in London, tbh, went there and had a ball) but it has to be a positive choice.

One thing that you should check - is he suffering from depression at all?

Beetle... good luck, hope he finds a solution that works for him.

Just wanted to add that my dh failed all his A'levels and went to university as a mature student. He went on to do a Masters and a PhD. Some of the best students I've had have been mature students (anything between 25 and 70!). My sister has just got a degree by distance learning and is now doing an MBA the same way. So if your brother does drop out, he hasn't burnt his bridges - he may go back later, or there are other options.

Hi,

Just a quick update for all of you who helped with this.
In the end he decided to defer for a year. He is now working full time in the shop where he has worked holidays for several years. He has already been promoted to supervisor and the store has now put him forward for employee of the year. He is really enjoying learning about the business, and his new responsibilities. I think it's pretty unlikely that he'll go back to uni, but that doesn't seem so important now that he's enjoying his work and looking to build a career with a good company. Thanks for all your advice.