Rather dumb Dissertation question

[Southdevondelight]

DD (only child) has just started Yr 4 after 12 months work placement. Neither I nor late DH or actually anyone in our families has ever gone to university, so I've no real knowledge and feel a bit stupid asking about dissertations. What exactly are they? Do you just choose something related to your studied topic? DD's timetable shows dissertation work against several modules so does that mean separate ones for each subject? She's not really enjoyed uni to the full, although thrived at placement and is now already stressing at the academic workload ahead so I'd like to understand as much as I can about these dissertations.

OP DD2 was a lot like your DD at the beginning of het 3rd year. She had a lot of assignments to hand in and a dissertation to start. She felt like she was drowning in all the work and finding it difficult to concentrate. Anyway she went to see her tutor and tole them what was happening, Not sure what they exactly told her but I do know a lot of students find the final year very hard especially in the first term. DD2 listened to whatever her tutor said and managed to get on with her work. She finished Uni with a 2:1 degree after thinking at the beginning of the year that she just wouldn"t be able to pass. her course. Please tell your DD to keep going, speak to her tutor and go to all her lectures, It would be a pity to give up now.

I would guess she'd get something like 'an ordinary degree in tourism management with industrial experience'.

But she really should go and see her personal tutor. It took me a very long time to realise that you're not annoying staff if you go and see them, they actually want to help you!

Does she have any friend, perhaps from a society, who is doing a PhD that she could talk to as well? Having somebody only a little bit older than you who has recent experience of doing a degree can really help.

Some further advice, now I have the time. Long post coming up, but please do cut & paste & show this to your DD. It's basically how I'd work face to face with such a dilemma.

Your daughter needs to take a deep breath and be a grown up, for just an hour at a time.

By this I mean that yes, these crises of confidence hit us all (even old lags like me). But part of becoming "independent learners" is that we have to learn how to deal with such crises. Not just crumple. We have to learn to give ourselves a break, and go easy & just sit with the emotion. Not turn it into a huge drama. This is really really hard to learn how to do, but it is the basis of resilience, which is so important.

There is help, and she should seek it. But she should also take steps to learn how to deal with such situations herself.

The problem at the moment is that she's in "all or nothing" thinking. To be really tough, this is an easy get out, frankly. I see it a lot: "Oh I'm stupid. I can't do this." -- it's a quick way out of dealing with a difficult situation, and a typically socialised female way of dealing with it.

But while it's understandable - we all do it to a certain extent, I'm sure! - then you take a deep breath and you start to take the small steps that are necessary to complete a large-scale piece of work, starting from scratch.

Doing it all in one go might work for an essay, where the essay question is written for her, and the content is described by the course/module, and there's a reading list & so on.

A dissertation is different. It's often longer than the essay length students are used to (but not always). However, the main challenge of a dissertation is that it's the student herself who develops the question or topic, defines the field, pulls together a schedule of reading & research.

So she needs to start with small steps: doing some reading around her broad topic. Then she needs to think about a coupe of questions which interest her. Without going "Oh, I'm too stupid, I can't do this" -- she just needs a couple of ideas. Get her to think about why she's doing the course in the first place. Or what's a question about the field she's studying that has niggled her for the last 2 years? Something. Anything.

Then she needs to get into her library and browse the bookshelves in that area, and start reading.

Then she needs to brainstorm a couple of pages. I set a creative writing exercise called "free writing" students write (I get them to do it in class because I am evil ) for 5 minutes without stopping. Without editing, without judging themselves. I get them started on a sentence such as "In my thesis I will argue that ..." Here's a Wikipedia link, but don't tell my students I've linked to wikipedia--

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_writing

She really needs to break the task down, bit by bit. And take small steps, step by step, and tell herself that each time she writes, "It's just a draft" she can rewrite. You can edit bad writing, you can't edit a blank page. She just needs to do anything, something, that will get her one tiny step closer to the final goal.

And she needs to "man up" about it but maybe just for an hour a day. The other 23 hours she can believe this "all or nothing" wrong-- thinking. But for one hour each day, she's going to help herself achieve what she really wants to achieve: at the end of a week, that's 7 hours of work towards her dissertation, and that's almost a whole working day.

On this principle she could also do a plan for herself, working backwards from the hand in date, and how many words. So a dissertation due, say 1 May, of 10,000 words, there are now 5 months to go. That's:
2,000 words a month;
500 words a week;
100 words a day.

But you do all this with a tutor or a supervisor, and that's the bit that's missing at the moment: your DD needs to find out the arrangements for this.

This is tough love & why my students pass!

up very informative post. I have saved it for future reference if needed for my DC in a few years time!

Glad it's useful.

Dear UptheChimney - thank you so much for taking the time to write all that. It's printed out and I'm going down to see DD at the weekend. She's just about hanging on - has always been able to put on a "front" - which is learned behaviour from me (I put on the make up and heels and function well at work but inside my heart was breaking, hence ending up needing a period of counselling after DH died). I'm aware this isn't a good thing and she should really try to open up and tell/talk to tutors etc how she's struggling so, but that is almost as hard for her to do as just plodding on, unfortunately.

The positive is that I'm now aware of just how bad things have become and can reassure DD that whatever happens, I'm not going to think any less of her (as if that would happen anyway to my pfb one and only :)

I'll continue trying to persuade her to meet with tutors (do all students have a "personal" tutor? She's never mentioned this. I will reiterate the method of small chunks at a time, something/anything is better than nothing and keep fingers crossed. I do understand what you say about "manning up" but she's dealt with some big life situations since age 10 (ongoing heart condition after surgery/death of father/grandfather/only aunt/selling up family home as I couldn't afford to stay there etc. Definitely NOT using these as excuses, more like an example of how she is able to deal with some things better than others IYSWIM. Anyway, I'm rambling but just wanted to thank everyone for their support and suggestions.

Don't leave it until the weekend, there's what, 8-10 Weeks so 40-50 working days in each semester. She'll loose another 3 if you leave out till the weekend. Every day she's burying her head in the sand will make this harder for her, she needs to get back into lectures, sat at the back, nursing a coffee if necessary, but trying to understand the material. Half the work is turning upand paying attention.

The other half is harder, but even harder if she didn't do the easy half of the effort.

I do understand what you say about "manning up" but she's dealt with some big life situations since age 10

It could be that this is the last straw, and she's projecting 10 years of unusual stress onto this one thing? A leave of absence might help: to stop studying, take a year out, and pick up where she left off?

But she really really needs to speak to a tutor. Honestly, we do tough love & I will look over my specs at students in a grim way, but underneath it all I know I'm actually a softy, and most of us really really want our students to succeed. But they have to put in the work.

Tell her, baby steps. Just read one chapter of her text book each day. Or set herself the challenge to say one thing in a seminar -- just one question or comment. It will be welcomed.

She should definitely have a personal tutor or director of studies or something - one that is 'her' tutor, even if they don't actually teach her at the moment.

A brief update if anyone is still following this one. After a call at 1.00am from DD sobbing with exhaustion to meet assignment deadline first thing the next day, I drove the 90 miles in record time and persuaded her to take a step back, get some sleep, set the alarm for 6.00am then we would tackle it afresh. By "we" I mean DD - I don't really understand the question, let alone be able to suggest anything! Anyway, assignment got handed in just before the deadline but unfortunately a few hours later she found out the previous assignment was graded an F by 3 marks, so she was down again :(

However, we have now accessed her student record and find that she's got 360 credits so far, which might allow her to graduate with some form of award (the BA Honours degree is 480 credits) but there may be enough for a Foundation or Ordinary degree. This news will hopefully be enough to keep her going. Now if only I can persuade her to open up and actually talk to a tutor or someone mentor/welfare or something, there could be light at the end of the tunnel. Apologies if I've come across as pfb but DD's all I have and sometimes things get skewed as a result. I do know she has to stand on her own two feet really and thanks to the various MN's who have helped me understand this.

Still following!
Dare I ask how she is doing with the dissertation?

BA Honours used to be 360 credits when I was at university. Are you sure she needs 480?

Senua, thanks to your own and UptheChimney's suggestions, dissertation is actually started (albeit only 400 odd words, but a start nonetheless) working on the basis of daily/weekly targets, broken down into smaller chunks for intro etc. As mentioned, DD has now realised that there's a chance her accumulated points will allow some form of award, so doesn't feel quite so desperate. Not out of the woods by a long long way - especially as she still can't bring herself to talk with uni staff - but a glimmer of hope.

Lougle - the university website reads "Honours degree (classified) with year long placement = 480 credits/CAT points" then Honours Degree (classified) = 360 credits, Degree = 300 and Dip.HE = 240. We have checked numerous times and her student record shows 120 each for Years 1 and 2 from 8 x modules @15 credits each and then 120 for the placement.

Like I said, neither of us knew how the points system worked but unless we have it very wrong, it seems DD can actually graduate with her group on some level and for both of that that feels amazing. Fingers crossed!

Oh yes, she definitely can, don't worry about that

A friend of mine left two years through a four year course, and was able to graduate with an DipHE, so your DD should definitely have more than enough credits for something.

Well done her for starting work on the dissertation, sometimes just getting started is the difficult part. And well done you for your support, you sound a brilliant mum.

Has she got any appointments sorted with her dissertation supervisor? - once she has started those chats then she might feel more open to the idea of speaking to a tutor or welfare officer. You can sell her the idea that she needs to see the supervisor sooner rather than later because she needs to check that she is on the right track (elsewise it will be misdirected effort).

Senua - No appointments with dissertation supervisor yet that I'm aware of. But will most definitely use the "selling idea" suggestion, it sounds very plausible and might just do the trick. From experience, I know situations can seem far worse than they may actually be, if kept locked inside. Not saying everything is miraculously sorted out, but my gran's old saying of A Trouble Shared Is A Trouble Halved may have a grain of truth in it, so will be working on that next. And thanks you very much for the brilliant mum bit, much appreciated. Going now before head swells too much :)

Anyway, assignment got handed in just before the deadline but unfortunately a few hours later she found out the previous assignment was graded an F by 3 marks, so she was down again

That doesn't matter, it means she has to get 3 marks from somewhere - 15 min with a tutor will sort that out. In fact the feedback should give her guidance.

And that is what they are there for, she is not pestering them or disturbing them, their is their job.

Excellent news on the dissertation.

Piece of advice

Hand in work on time even if it is not complete. You might pass, you might not, but you will get feedback to enable you to complete if you don't pass.

Brilliant mother. Outstandingly useful thread imo.

Sashh - see that's something else which hasn't occurred to either of us - handing work in if it's not complete. I would think it to mean an automatic fail! In fact, I still don't really understand how there could be circumstances where "you will get feedback to enable you to complete if you don't pass". Surely that's just a licence to not worry or put much effort in, knowing you can have a second crack at it? What am I missing? (I did say the whole process bewilders me :) )

Thank you funnyperson - if my ignorance of the university system helps just one other then I'll be really pleased - and not feel quite so dim!

If you have a second go, it may mean the maximum you can achieve for it is the pass mark, but I don't know.

You can play the system a bit, it depends how your university works.

For mine, every working day late a piece of work is handed in you lose 5% of the mark you get. So, say you were doing a piece of work that was out of twenty, if you thought you could get at least one mark more by having the extra 24 hours then it would ultimately be better for you to delay a day and have 5% taken off than hand it in. It's why our hand ins are rarely on a Friday. For the docking of a small percentage of your mark you can push back the hand in time from 5 pm on Friday to 5pm on Monday!

I really struggled with my first degree butfor some modules the incomplete bits of coursework I'd handed in and got 5/20 for pushedme over into passing. These were crucial: I scraped a pass with exactly the right number of credits.

Laura & Mines - I'm not sure how it works for Gloucester but, if it is as you've described/explained then I do now understand. This is yet another reason why DD must be encouraged to keep going!

How I wish I'd asked MN all the "basic" questions I had when she first got to university, instead of spending three years feeling a bit lost and ignorant of what others seemed to know - and take for granted we ALL knew as parents IYSWIM.

Thing is, ALL this information is easily available to students -- maybe not to those without usernames/passwords for the particular University system. Your daughter WILL have access to all this information. I know we tell students endlessly where & how to find it. Most of them don't need to (they're the ones who are getting through); some of them look it up, and come and tell you how many marks they need, or that they've decided they don't need to do an assessment because they don't need the marks (they are cheating themselves of an education! silly kids); and then there are the ones who get themselves into a tangle.

It seems that your daughter is being an ostrich, and it's not helping her. You know that & it must be frustrating. A tutor will be able to show her where she can find the information about marking policies: IT IS ALL THERE!!!! It's been there since she started in Freshers' Week. (sorry for the shouting, it's just years of frustration ...) She really needs to see a tutor.

She will ALSO have a Welfare Tutor, or a Personal Tutor, or a Dissertation tutor. She should know who these people are. The information may even be on the Departmental website, it may not even e password protected. She needs to talk -- we've heard it all before. We can be pragmatic and help her to work out her best options. We have boxes of tissues!

UptheChimney - although on a tiny level in comparison, I do share your pain and frustration. It's partly my fault for not pushing/coaxing/persuading - call it what you will - my DD and she really should have reached the stage of feeling confident to access stuff herself. I suspected there would be support as obviously she's not alone in this situation (like you say, you have heard it all before) and wish we could turn the clock back to start again. I know her university experience would be so much better with hindsight.

However, we're dealing with now and I just hope the information accessed will act as a spur and confidence booster. Yes to ostrich-style DD (her way of dealing with difficult situations I fear) and be reassured I am doing all in my power to get her to TALK TO PEOPLE (shouting at her not you by the way). I will not give up :)

you will get feedback to enable you to complete if you don't pass". Surely that's just a licence to not worry or put much effort in, knowing you can have a second crack at it? What am I missing?

You are missing that the resit grade is capped at a bare minimum pass. So say the pass mark is 40%, you score 30% because the work isn't complete, or isn't good enough you then get a chance to resit/resubmit (which is a hassle in itself) and say on your resit you get 99% the mark that will go on your record will be 40% because it is capped at that.

Also if you hand in incomplete work there is always the chance you have done enough to pass, in the above example if the % is divided evenly across an assignment with 5 parts each part will be worth 20% (100/5).

So if yo hand in 4 out of 5 parts and get full marks you would still have a mark of 80%. If you don't hand it in you will get 0, and a resit is still capped at 40% so if you cannot complete a piece of work and you have no mitigating circumstances hand in what you have done.

The feedback will give you direction, it won't tell you exactly what to do but will point you towards a pass.