I am really struggling with what my DD wants to study at University please come and talk some sense into me

[minsmum]

My DD is currently doing her AS levels and started off thinking about a joint English/Philosphy degree. She then changed her mind and it became Philosophy/Creative writing. Now she is concentrating on Creative writing.

My DH and I left school after O levels so have no understanding of degree courses and I can't stop myself feeling this not a degree subject. I really want to support her and feel enthusiastic about her choices but I am struggling with this.

It is of course her choice and she will do what she feels is best I just think I need help understanding what creative writing is for, if you see what I mean.

No-but anyone who gets too many applicants can set their own criteria.Supply and demand.

I would advise her to apply for English literature as an undergrad, and then do creative writing as an MA afterwards if that's what she really wants to do.

I understand your concern. Even as an English graduate Creative Writing sounds a bit watered down and am surprised it s offered as a course in its own right. It may well include more "meaty" modules of linguistics, semantics, history of ideas, writing for specific media such as journalism or and literature but then why not an English degree with CW as a module. Also a very subjective subject to mark so to a potential employer less meaningful - make sure she chooses topics within the course and for A levels she can specify on her cv and demonstrate transferrable skills.

LIZS Whilst I agree with what you're saying in principle, unfortuantely many employers won't even get as far as the modules. They'll bin at "creative writing"

I once asked the grad recruiter at a large city accountancy firm how they whittled from 60 to 1 (grad application to training contract ratio) and it was pretty harsh reading. Basically, 15 UK Universities, list of core academic courses (accountancy not on the list!), 2:1 or above. Anything not meeting those requirements, in the bin. That would get it down to 10 for 1 place. Then A-levels cut it to 5 for 1. Then they'd interview. Must be even easier now that applications are online as presumably they can screen automatically.

Thanks for all the information that you have given me I have done a lot of thinking over the last few days. I suppose the reason that I struggle with the creative writing is because it is the sort of thing that friends have done at evening classes while working. However from what you all have said it would be completely different.

She is studying English Lit, RS, Philosphy and Geography at AS level and in those subjects she got A* and A at GCSE a couple more A's and the rest B's and C's. She is a bright girl who has no belief in herself at all.

She doesn't listen to me and in fact tells me very little she does however talk to one of her coaches and her friends mum who both let me know what she says and try to help her by offering her advice and encouragement. Both have been to university and one of them is a GP.

They have suggested that she looks at english/philosphy or one of them at a university which has creative writing as modules and I have asked them to suggest that she should think about doing creative writing as her masters after her degree, thanks for the suggestion.

She went to an event where universities where present and seemed very interested in Hull and my friend has suggested she look at UAE as well.

UAE is very highly thought of for creative writing. She could also look to see if any writers she likes teach anywhere (David Lodge used to teach English at Birmingham for example).

From your update minsmum, it sounds like your daughter should be on course for As and Bs at A-level , which means broadly speaking she should be aiming for Russell Group or 1994 group universities. This means English with a minor or options in Creative Writing. She could do a combined honours degree and study all three of English, Philosophy and Creative Writing. Get her to look at the Eng + CW degrees at Aber, Lancaster, Newcastle, Royal Holloway, Warwick.

The universities that offer degrees only in CW are, with very few exceptions, quite a lot further down the food chain than the ones your daughter should be targeting. There are good people teaching there, but in many cases they are trying to leave as research time is being squeezed and a preoccupation with pleasing the customer is actually having detrimental effects on the quality of education (and despite comments you'll see made on here, my experience as a lecturer in the humanities is that good research and good teaching are complementary). In addition the other students won't be working at her level, and she may well find that frustrating.

Senua is right to say upthread that for many subjects, degree content is less important than transferable skills. But looking at course outlines, I'd say that a degree wholly in CW is likely to be less good at equipping students with transferable skills than a more traditional humanities one: there are fewer opportunities to analyse complex ideas, synthesise demanding sources, develop rational arguments, for instance, than in an Eng Lit degree - and these are qualities employers value highly.

campergirls what a helpful post.

Whatever she chooses make sure she goes to some Open days and talks to her favoured universities. Hopefully this will also help her sort out the wheat from the chaff. My son did this, even making the journey from Spain. He loved Aber the moment he saw it and still does. He had offers for similar courses at Notts & Birmingham, both higher up the food chain, but went with Aber. I would have liked him to go to Birmingham but I wasn't the one going this time!!
Good luck to your daughter whatever she does.

Thanks Campergirls as Fussy said a very helpful post.

I had a chat with her last night and she is talking about hertfordshire & st Davids which are not high up the food chain I don't think.

We have been for a visit to Staffordshire I liked it but although she liked the lecturer she didn't like the place.

I think I might book her for a few open days, maybe Lancaster and a few others that you have named and she may be inspired by that.

Because of what you said about employment I did say that maybe her employment prospects would be better if she chose a more traditional subject. I think she is a bit confused about it all really. She said that there is no one at school to talk through her options with.

Lots of this advice is really helpful.

Hertfordshire, Staffordshire and St. David's (I had never even heard of this and had to look it up) are not very well regarded, tbh. Lancaster is solid.

As I think I/someone else said before if she can get into a Russell Group university list here that would be great. UEA is not on that list but I think it's also well-respected, I'm not saying it's impossible to get a good job with a degree from somewhere else but it will be harder. She should be able to get into one with her grades.

It is annoying she can't get good advice from school. Bad/non-existent advice from state schools is a big reason why a lot of young people end up making choices that are not the best for them. It's the children with parents who know the system that end up getting into the best unis/jobs. It's great that you are hunting about for info, you are doing her a great help.

So much of this stuff is not really written anywhere, and people will often criticise anyone who says that some unis are not so well rated but it's true. I went through the graduate recruitment process for two different professions and now often talk with friends who are recruiting for their firms and they all say the same. It is really very confusing for anyone who doesn't have this type of background or experience.

Luckily the A/AS levels she has chosen are all very good and well-regarded, which will be a big help later on.

I agree with not doing creative writing alone. English and philosophy would give her much more choice and she can pursue creative writing in free time. Why don't you speak to her about how it will reduce her opportunities and most people who make a livong out of creative writing have not studied it at uni. Maybe research some of her favourite authors.

I'm a lecturer at a Russell Group Uni - so know the score a little. Get her, if you can, to do a degree in a more traditional discipline, at a well respected place (Russell Group, 1994 Group). It's much easier to get a job afterwards, the course will be a bit more rigorous and if she really wants to do creative writing, she can always do an MA afterwards.

Yes masters afterwards is a brilliant idea.

P.s avoid Hertfordshire, Staffordshire and St Davids like the plague. Lancaster is OK, better would be Warwick, Durham, St. Andrews, Kings London.... etc.

minsmum Not surprised she's confused if she's not getting good advice from the school. Whilst in some ways now it's easier as there is so much information out there (in my day you randomly picked a few Unis you might be interested in and sent off a SAE for a prospectus- no internet), in some ways it's harder as a lot of the information is conflicting. There's a lot of noise around the subject. There is also a lot of misinformation (in my opinion) about the value of very targeted/vocational degrees.

The problem with creative writing is that

• she doesn't need it to become a writer/ journalist/ author etc
• It will potentially prevent her from pursuing other careers that may not even have occurred to her yet. University really opened my eyes to job possibilities that I didn't know existed.

What I would say to her is that the important thing is to keep as many options open as possible and to do that, she should be looking to study a traditional academic subject at the best regarded University she can get into. Given her grades, it seems she's maybe aiming a bit low. If I were her, I'd aim Russell Group. Worst thing that can happen is that she gets no offers and re-applies post A-levels (takes a year out), but at least then she knows she didnt sell herself short.

I say this as someone who was desperate to become a journalist at 18. I actually became a chartered accountant and have worked in finance/ banking since (joined a grad scheme post-Uni having studied history as my undergrad subject). If you'd told me that 3 years earlier I would have laughed in your face.

I agree with choosing a course that keeps as many options open as possible- you do change your mind at that age. Creative writing is too narrow.

I have several writers as clients and all bar one have English degrees ( and then several years working in Waterstones oddly enough). A Creative Writing course would be an add-on after that (eg Falmouth college does a v good postgrad course for Professional Writing). Good luck, it's really hard to work all this out nowadays.

My cousin did English Lit at a "new university" and got a 2.1 but has been rejected for 100s of graduate jobs. She really regrets her choice of uni and with hindsight wishes she had chosen a RG. For English type degrees you have to factor in that they are one of the most popular courses and there will be 1000s of graduates who will be chasing the same jobs. If you are going to do a popular course go for the most prestigious unis: Oxbridge or RGs.

I have also told the dc that I will not be providing any financial support for them if they choose a "mickey mouse" subject at a non RG uni. If they want to do a subject for the love of it which has no potential to get them a graduate job then it's up to them to fund it themselves.

Ask her to look at this course - English Lit and Creative Writing at Manchester University. Great university, great course.

Well she has just received her AS results A in English lit,B in geography,B in RS and D in philosophy. Completely changed her mind about uni and wants to visit Exeter,Warwick UAE to look at English courses. I think that until she got these results she thought she wasn't good enough for the better universities. Her friend who is a year older has just told her that if she did some work she would be getting even higher grades.
Thank you all so much now that she is ready to listen to me I actually have some important information to give her

I did an English degree followed up by an MA in Creative Writing (at Bath Spa which was well rated for CW back then, I don't know about now). I do not work as a writer and actually am not sure if I want to now. I prefer it as a hobby (am currently doing a book for my children's nursery). I work in publishing, having also later qualified in law. I think having a 'proper' degree has helped me get to where I am. My wonderful creative writing lecturer had a career in writing but had spent years writing London's Burning or The Bill or something like those, and was disillusioned with what a career in writing actually can mean. I did try and go up this line too and got a little tiny way into scriptwriting, but not far enough and what was required by producers was not me, if you see what I mean - not my 'voice' and I think it is hard to develop that if you are writing to a brief. Ultimately a strong voice will be your best asset as a writer, and you will write better (imo).

I think studying English/Philosophy first as others have said upthread is a far better idea - it will inform and inspire her creatively. I also found that English at degree level was far, far more interesting than it had been at A level - at the time I did A Level, it was very much dry analysis of text with none of the critical theory, philosophy and not much of the cultural/historical context. I did an English degree with Creative Writing modules, and it was my performance in these modules which pushed me over the boundary to get a first (that helps on the CV!)

I would like to echo what has been said here and advise only setting her sights on well regarded universities and only doing solid traditional subjects there.

Of the subjects she has, I would focus on Geography. English Lit would be my second choice from a practical pov, but I would only do it at a really well regarded university.

An idea of what you can do with a degree in Geography. Some career areas in geography have a significant writing component, and there is always journalism with an environmental or climate or urban development angle if she loves writing.

If she still has the creative bug then she could pursue a MA specifically in creative writing but getting a bread and butter degree would be a sound investment first.

It's a lot of debt for a "lightweight" subject. You are of course free to disagree with my use of the word lightweight - but I am just one voice in a vast ocean.

My advice would be to aim for the best uni you can get into then choose from the subjects they offer. Has she considered a joint honours in English and geography? That would surely give her more options later on and broader skills when she is there.

I'd also recommend a masters in creative writing if she is still interested later on.