DH wants to retrain in Law (OU) advice welcome!

[KellyKettle]

We've recently had DC2 and I'm planning to go back work next year and DH leave his job and stay home. DH has decided he'd like to use this time to retrain in Law with OU/College of Law.

He's starting the foundation in the New Year and then the 3 year LLB. After that he can do an LPC at the college of Law.

I know absolutely nothing about law so have a few questions I'm hoping someone can help me with.

• is there any point doing the LPC if he doesn't already have a training contract (which seem to be gold dust) lined up?

• if he does LPC does it 'expire'? Does he need to find a TC within a certain time frame?

• Could he realistically expect to get a job in another area related to law if he couldn't get a TC?

We will be paying for this ourselves so won't be getting into debt to fund it but I'd quite like to have realistic expectations of his prospects.

I can't discourage him, he has been talking about it for years & it's his dream. I suppose I'm just worried we'll struggle for years and he'll end up in a low paid job resenting not getting a TC.

Hi Kelly

I'm a solicitor, so know how much of a struggle the whole law degree/lpc and training contract is. however, i went through it a few years ago now and obviously the financial climate has changed quite a bit.

Even 10 years ago, i had to wait 18 months to get a training contract but was lucky enough to work as a legal assistant in the meantime.

At our firm, we have a trainee, but, sadly, won't be offering her a job afterwards as finances mean that we cannot set anyone else on. so your Dh also has the difficulty of obtaining the employment after his training contract.

alot of it, however, does depend on the type of law he wishes to go into. Our firm mainly does legal aid work, so things are extremely bleak at the moment.

as far as your other points, the LPC doesn't expire, but the longer it takes after he has completed it to finding a training contract, potential employers may be hesitant to set him on.

However, on the bright side, a law degree is a great degree to have as it is an "all-rounder" and will provide him with many different skills.

sorry, to be so pessimistic, but the legal profession is sttruggling at the moment. However, i would probably advise him to do the law degree and try and obtain a training contract during that time.

HTH

hi there - I'm starting a GDL with COL in January - I need to be quick right now but one thing taht struck me about your post was the financials - if he's doing an LLB plus LPC that means either 4 years not working/earning plus child care costs (studying f-t); or longer (possibly without child care costs) if he's studying part-time. That's an enormous cost. plus the fees - the LPC is in the region of £10k. I don't have a tc and am terrified - like you it won;t involve going into debt, but 2 years of fees, plus loss of earnings , means the real cost is enormous.

Anotehr thing is that in order to get a chance at a tc he'll need a lot of extras - relevant work experience, vac placements, voluntary work - all of which take up time (including an inordinate amount of time researching and applying). even with previous "proper" work, iyswim, he'll need law stuff too.

look at lawcareers.net and trainee solicitor. also go to universit law fairs to talk to law firms (tehy tend to be in november/december)

the law degree on it's own will be good though - and will certainly boost his cv generally.

Thanks autumn. That's a great help & a relief to know the LPC doesn't expire - I know DH will want to do it even without a TC in place.

Can I ask why TCs are so hard to come by? Is it because they pay fees & a salary? Would they not take people on who were self-funding?

I had some friends who really struggled to get a TC 6 years ago. One gave up but one managed to get one in the City. I'm not in young with her anymore but wonder how she's doing now..

Is there anything else DH can do to strengthen his position?

Another solicitor here

autumnchild is right: it is tough at the moment and it is not likely to get any better for some years.

Your DH's foundation year and degree will not be wasted even if he doesn't go into law. A degree in law is the same as a degree in any other academically rigorous discipline in that the "thinking skills" developed are transferable.

A very important consideration is whether your DH is really interested in the subject (as opposed to thinks that this would be a sensible career). A law degree is a long slog, especially if combined with looking after two small children, and there is a lot of quite dry and difficult stuff to get to grips with. He will be miserable if he is not really interested. An alternative, which extends the process by a year and would increase cost commensurately, is to read another subject for his degree then do a conversion course. He should make sure that he gets a first or 2:1. A 2:2 these days is simply not worth having.

He should start looking for a training contract before he finishes his degree: if he gets one it will ease his financial position through the LPC, either because his future employer will fund him or because the bank will have a more positive attitude towards his prospects. Looking for a TC early also shows energy and commitment. If he doesn't get one before doing the LPC it is not fatal. I would encourage him to start putting out feelers with firms which interest him as early as he can, asking for a day or two's work experience etc..

The LPC diploma doesn't "expire" but the longer the time expired between getting it and getting a TC the harder it is to get a job: not only will he be assumed to be stale but there is a psychological phenomenon which makes employers reluctant to take people whom others have turned down- daft but true.

The positive thing is that by the time he has been through all this the economy may have settled down a bit. He will also be a proper grown up with maturity and common sense (I assume!) and this will, age discrimination notwithsatnding, mean that he has something which the average 22 year old straight out of university cannot offer.

Good luck to both of you!

Getting a training contract is difficult and the market is saturated with graduates. What sort of law did he have in mind? Most commercial firms wouldn't really look at an OU grad unless they otherwise had a stellar background academically but I'd have said although high street firms (which pay an awful lot less, often very badly) may be more open to the possibility. Is going to a local university an alternative option?

I wouldn't recommend doing the LPC without a job lined up otherwise you end up another year and another £10k in fees poorer.

If he doesn't get a TC then he will be in the position of any other graduate - having a degree which is obviously better than not having one, but won't necessarily make him more attractive than other subject graduates. Not sure what you mean by other areas - did you have anything specific in mind?

TCs have to be paid - there is a law society minimum of something like £14k. Only large firms will provide support with fees. There is also no guarantee of a job on qualification.

I was under the impression that either the law degree or LPC did expire after about 7 years but I might just be out of date there.

If possible I'd recommend he has an honest chat with a couple of solicitors IRL and ask for a realistic assessment of his chances given his CV etc. Far better to understand what his chances are now than 4 years down the track.

To answer your question on why TCs are so hard to come by:

When a firm takes on a trainee, that trainee represents both a cost and an investment. Where a firm funds the trainee through the LPC that represents about £10,000 of fees plus, in some cases a maintenance grant of about £8,000.

When the trainee arrives, s/he is not much use for anything. S/he is there to learn and the firm has a duty (monitored by the Solicitors Regulatory Authority) to teach. It is very difficult to generate revenue from trainees. I work in a city firm and we reckon on about £100,000 total cost per trainee over the two years. It is not until the trainee is successfully qualified that we begin to recoup all that cost. It is also important that we choose really good people for training contracts because trainees become the firms associates and partners in the future.

At the moment there is unprecedented demand for training contracts, not because of a sudden upsurge in love of the law but because jobs generally are so hard to come by

Thanks Hatwoman & Vixatis

I forgot to mention that I'll be working 4 days per week so plan to have the girls one day per week. DH was planning to look for unpaid work experience one day per week.

Hatwoman I looked at the cost of the LPC yesterday and it made my eyes water! Ideally, DH would find a new love for his current career and we could keep the money but he's been miserable in his career for years which is why I'm going back to work and he's staying home. Plus childcare was going to cost us £20k a year so this course seems like a bargain in comparison

Thanks both.

nomorewasabi he has quite a few solicitor friends who have been encouraging which goes against a lot of what I've read online about difficulty getting TCs.

I have no idea what area of law he wants to work in. I hadn't thought of that.

Are there careers in law which he could look at as alternatives? What do all these graduates without training contracts do? Give up their dream?

Thanks for the explanation on TCs. That makes sense now.

There was recently a very long thread in AIBU about retraining as a barrister which would definitely be worth a read as the LPC was raised as an alternative.

I'm afraid the general consensus from the large numbers of solicitors and barristers on the thread was negative but it did have some useful info.

I would also say (anecdotally) that there appear to be more EX lawyers on MN than there are any other profession which I always consider to be food for thought

Well, of those I know who didn?t get a TC or pupillage soon after law/bar school, off the top of my head there was

• A paralegal who 5 years later finally got a TC
• A policy person
• An accountant
• A project manager

Just logged back on - i think that the other posters have answered the issue over the tc and why they are so hard to come by and i would agree with their replies.

hope the future is good for you both no matter what he decides to do.

Thank you all for your replies. Sorry for the delay replying, we've moved house and still have no Internet.

I spoke with DH last night about and asked if there was anything else he'd be interested in studying. It seems like a lot of money to spend when 2/3 graduates don't get training contracts. I asked if he'd be ok if he didn't get a TC. He just said he'd make sure he did.

He was quite offended so I've backed off.

I don't mind paying for him to retrain and change career if there is a career for him at the end of it.

I'll have a look at the Barrister thread as soon as we have an Internet connection again.

Oh he's interested in IT law.

I hate to add more negativity but...

I also have a law degree, and a masters degree in criminal law. When it came down to it, I couldn't afford the LPC so my experience probably isn't the most valuable. I'm now working as an Immigration Caseworker, which basically means I have all of the responsibilities of a solicitor in my area, however my firm can get away with paying me less than your average legal secretary.

I have two colleagues doing the same job as me, for the same wage. One has a 1st Class LLB with honours, won a whole shelf full of prizes, was involved with his university's legal clinic etc etc and has completed the LPC. He CANNOT find a training contract. I will point out that this chap now has four years of experience as a lawyer including case preparation, client care and advocacy. He would not be some wet behind the ears graduate like your husband who would spend his first few months being good for nothing more than making cups of tea.

The other went to a Russell Group university (much more highly valued than an OU degree) and completed the BVC. Again, she cannot find employment and is currently earning a terrible wage, in a terrible firm.

Law is not a 'good all round' degree. Believe me, it is impossible to find jobs in another field because potential employers are always worried you'll use them as a stop gap and then return to law. It's an incredibly restrictive degree and yet is always peddled as this wonderful door-opener.

I would strongly advise your husband to reconsider and look at the realistic employment opportunities in other areas. He can't magic a training contract out of thin air and without one, he will find himself held back and unsatisfied.

Another solicitor here.

Back in my day (I am old so old) it was reasonably easy to obtain a TC as long as you fit the bog standard criteria. It appears at first glance to be much harder and given the increasing numbers of students versus training contract places employers can be and are a lot more selective about who they pick and who they retain.

I have assumed (albeit incorrectly) that your DP will be looking for a TC in London and specifically the City in order to pay back the debt he will amount to get to the LPC stage.

My concerns regarding your DP obtaining a TC in the City (assuming this is what he wants) are:

1. His age;
2. Open University Degree

I wish you the best of luck in what will be a difficult process. My only other advice is avoid the bar. My husband is a barrister and it is even more competitive at the bar where a first from Oxbridge is really your best chance in (not only chance but best chance).

Apologies for sounding so negative.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

oh dear. I know a couple of people who did this, one is currently working at CAB because he couldn't get a job. The other is a high street solicitor. another friend of mine gave up and works for the local authority advising in housing (a similar area to the one she wanted to go into in the law).

I am also a solicitor, and an employer of solicitors (in-house though). I get so many applicants for the lowest of admin jobs in my team from people who've completed the LPC and can't get a job. I also got applicants for a nanny job (to look after my children) from similar people.

When we do advertise for qualified solicitors, we get an awful lot of applicants. I'm not sure I would look at someone with an OU degree unless they had some relevant experience in my field. the people who've started out in admin in my team haven't always gone onto get training contracts.

I would say it's a desperately difficult time to go into the law. If he is deadset on going into IT law, he will be up against some of the brightest oxbridge graduates. among them I think they feel the need to complete vacation placements or get paralegal work in order to give them a chance of getting a job. I'm not sure I would advise my children to go into this career, let alone someone who is older, with an OU degree and responsibilities etc.

sorry I can't be more positive.

Thanks both. Your posts just voice exactly my concerns.

He'll be looking for a post up North but I'd imagined London would have been easier to find a TC. Either way, we're restricted by the DDs, school, mortgage. We won't get into debt for the training but we will be restricted (house, car, holidays) and ifs money down the drain I'd rather waste it on a fabulous holiday - well, actually a bigger house...

I need to think of an alternative career that I can encourage him to consider. His Polly-Anna attitude is wearing.

On the upside - what does he have to offer? 2/3 don't get training contracts, but 1/3 do - what would enable him to stand out from the crowd? (specifically a crowd of 20somethings with Oxbridge 2:1s who are happy to work 12 hour days).

I would add to the chorus of negatives. A friend's daughter who is in her thirties has just gone through this. She had a very decent career beforehand, so has a good employment history to show. She changed lanes because she felt she had walked almost by accident into her previous career, whereas law was what she had always wanted to do.

I regard her as exceptional: good degree, good results, very mature, and as I said before, a previous employment history which should make law firms nod approvingly. Instead, she cannot get a training contract. She is working as a paralegal, for peanuts. Indeed, she needs to babysit on evenings and weekends to make ends meet, though she is living with her parents, and has no children, so her living expenses are not huge. Your dh has children to support, and a home.

I would also mention the bone-crushing number of hours of overtime a trainee is expected to put in. For years, i worked 12 hour days every day, weekends, bank holidays, etc, etc. You and your dc won't see much of him.

yes, what is his first degree (where from etc)? What is his current career - if he can show that this would give him relevant experience in his new field that would help. I'm sure it would be beneficial for an IT lawyer to have worked in and IT company for example. alternatively, if he is deadset on law, he may have to aim to go into an area related to his first degree or his current career. That would give him a headstart in the job market (in one firm I worked in that did alot of IP law, most of the solicitors had degrees in the sciences for example).

Does he understand what ?IT law? means? Because in the main it is commercial contracts work - endlessly negotiating the supply of goods and service from an IT provider to clients. IMO pretty damn dull. Genereally done by commercial firms so the good news is will pay better than say high street family law but their CV expectations of potential trainees will be higher. And the OU degree is not going to be very well received I?m afraid.

IT can also mean intellectual property but that is a pretty small field and extremely popular.

I would also advise that you have a look at the recent thread re barrister training, it was about 600 posts long and had a lot of detail about solicitor training as well. It was very bleak reading, however I would advise that you show it to him.

I will try and find it, hang on.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1255018-To-consider-retraining-as-a-barrister

Another solicitor here. I would also discourage him. TCs are very hard to come by. We have hundred of applications for every TC we offer. To be quite honest the fact that he obtained his law degree through the open univetsity will count against him since he'll be competing with people with firsts from Oxbridge. Also does he have realistic salary expectations? I know lots of people who think that lawyers are paid a fortune when in reality the vast majority are not. Would also second the fact that the hours expected of a trainee are not compatible with having a family. Will you be able to take on that burden entirely?

If you look here
www.rollonfriday.com/InsideInfo/RegionalFirms/tabid/74/Default.aspx
you will see details of what the TOP regional firms pay. This will be the very top of what will be available outside London with most firms (including commercial firms) paying quite a lot less than this.