Failed 1st year medicine

[chickengoujon]

I am so upset and just looking for a bit of support really. My dd worked desperately hard to get into uni to do medicine. She volunteered at a local old people's home, worked at the gps, worked at the hospital, etc. She got fantastic A levels: A*, A, A, B in general studies. She is a lovely girl, really home loving and plesant.

When she went off to uni she was sad and then started to really live it up, not working very hard. She failed an exam after christmas but apparently that 'didn't matter'. She then failed 5 exams in the summer and spent all summer revising for her resits, only to fail again. After the uni asked her to leave last week she told me that she hadn't been eating properly for about 6 months. She is 5ft 8 and 7st 10. She is like a stick insect and I have been very concerned about her extreme thinness, but she reassured me that she was fine. She said how she had difficulty concentrating when revising and couldn't remember things - does anorexia do this? We didn't submit mitigations before her exams because I wasn't aware that she wasn't eating and she thought she was fine. Could we appeal? Is it too late? The uni seem totally disinterested and couldn't care less.

I feel so upset. Getting her in was so difficult and now it seems she has lost everything. She is totally devastated. Thanks for reading.

Hmmm....interesting discussions.
There is research to show that the pass rate for those who appear to be 'foreigners' (even if they are British born) is lower, particularly in postgraduate medical examinations with an oral/practical component. I believe, for example, that the Royal College of General Practitioners has been taken to court about this.
Peterneras I am glad your son is doing well. You did the right thing for him. In my year there was a really nice, bright hardworking boy who panicked on the day of the pharmacology exam, took a look at the paper ad walked out without writing a word, so failed finals. I'm sure to this day he would have passed if he'd kept his cool and felt so sad for him, though he was OK 6 months later on the retake.

Purplerain the article you quote is by Daniel Sokol. He is a former academic, a philosopher who then did a law conversion degree and now runs a firm helping students appeal against uni decision. He should know, and because he was a former colleague of mine I bet you he does know, that students have no right to ask for scripts to be re-marked. Scripts are marked by the first examiner, second marked by the second examiner and then moderated by the external examiner - there is no appeal against this mark as such.

Purple you don't have to be white or originally from the UK to be a racist.

As for the article you've linked to - I cannot see anything to base your obnoxious use of the FOIA on.

The foreign students were an easy target.

Your son failed - live with it.

I work in a student union advising students on academic appeals / course problems etc. I can assure you that it isn't uncommon for mistakes to be made or bias to be shown when academics are marking papers. They are only human. Universities close ranks when they think they're being criticised. Purple - your son need to speak to the student union ASAP and get their advice. It may be that he failed as he didn't work hard enough; it may have been a mistake. They will help to find out which.

Purple - I'm not sure you've shared with us why you think your son has been penalized for the benefit of the foreigners?!

name I am very interested in your experience. Does you uni allow students to appeal the mark? I have never come across this, students can offer mitigating circumstances, they can appeal if the stated process was not applied correctly but never appeal the mark as such. What cases of bias have you come across? At the Unis I worked or examined for everything was marked anonymously.

Purple - I'm not sure you've shared with us why you think your son has been penalized for the benefit of the foreigners?

This is why Purple's allegation is racist. She's attributed wholesale bias against Home/EU students (as a group) in favour of "foreign" students as a group. She's alleged nefarious intention and bias on the basis of a groups race/ethnicity/citizenship. It's the equivalent of saying that all black people are lazy, or all women get hysterical every 4 weeks.

Yes, academics are human, and can have differing views on the evaluation of exam scripts. In my experience (which is extensive) the difference is often more about the numerical mark awarded than a narrative evaluation of the work ie the feedback comments.

Exam scripts don't have comments or narrative feedback. Just marks and usually initials of marker, second marker, and externals, or third marker if one is brought in to deal with a significant difference between 1st and 2nd markers. Numerical calculation errors are rare because most marks are now processed in complex computer systems. Inputting of marks is done by admin staff, and akways checked and double checked by another admin person, the departmental Exams a Officer (an academic) and then marks etc are all inspected at the Departmental exam board, at which at least one External Examiner is present.

So there are quite complex systems for checking and double checking, precisely because we know that people can make mistakes.

But Purple seems to assume that academics and admin staff deliberately 'make mistakes' to advantage a particular group of students, whom she identifies only on grounds of their ethnicity/race/citizenship. Because of course, when I get a set of exam papers, with candidates identified by numbers, I've memorised the numbers of those pesky foreigners. And I have special powers -- I can smell those foreign genes on the paper. Or maybe I can tell by the handwriting. Or the colour of the pen.

some rubbish being posted here but some stupidity.

Actually there are quite a few Americans and Canadians at British universities, some white South Africans as well as non-white ones and god knows who else. I haven't met any Australians at university but wouldn't be surprised to find some of them too. The question was about whether those paying higher fees get favourable treatment and the racism was in the eye of the beholders. Pointing out that names arent on the papers and that the question was going to irritate the university when you want them to be helpful were useful responses.

Peternas graduate medicine is still an option if the young person still wants to do medicine after a different degree. Of course it's very competitive and the chances are not great but if they are dedicated to medicine they can try. Those who dont try dont have any chance. You can express any opinion you like, but the declared aim of this site is to be helpful to other parents - you were not being helpful.

I wish people would remember that what is done at one university or even one medical school is not always the same elsewhere.

Purplerain123 you can not compel the university to let your son see his script. I personally think it is bad practise but I suspect it wouldn't help if you saw it. Did he have summer resits - some schools have these? If he has not been allowed any resit then it's very hard on him. You need to be reminding him that he's an able young man and there are lots of opportunities out there for him.

I'm not sure about the racism. I think we are splitting hairs there: it is rather xenophobic (which I think is the actual term Upthe used) to assume the 'problem' would be foreign students.

But more to the point, purple is simply misunderstanding what her FOI request showed her. It couldn't possibly demonstrate bias. It just doesn't work that way, and I am not sure she thinks it could?

I'm sure academics can be biased, but I'm also damn sure most of them try extremely hard not to be. I simply don't believe anyone is routinely pulling off a conspiracy to 1) get around the anonymity of marking and 2) ensure that foreign students' marks are bumped up, purely to get more cash.

Why does anyone imagine this wuld help the academics?

Academics need money in the form of 1) their salaries and 2) grants. To falsify results so as to keep on more foreign students would be of no use to them. Unless you are suggesting the vice-chancellor or someone sufficiently high up is secretly moonlighting in the marking department and pulling of this sort of thing? And how on earth would they do that without the entire department knowing?

What is being suggested is a massive fraud. It would bring it a relatively small amount of money, too, compared to the amounts you might get as grants in medicine.

And, as a side point, honestly, purple, I know it's tough but you need to let go, and let him live his own life. I'd be mortified if my mum were making FOI requests on my behalf - isn't he?

Gah. Excuse typos.

'It couldn't possibly demonstrate bias. It just doesn't work that way, and I am not sure she thinks it could?' should be 'It couldn't possibly demonstrate bias. It just doesn't work that way, and I am not sure why she thinks it could?'

So you take it upon yourself alreadytaken as your handle suggests, that you know it all, rubbish and stupidity being posted by others and you’re the only one talking sense. If stupidity is being demonstrated anywhere, it is right here.

Of course, there are Americans, Canadians, South Africans, not to mention even Cherokees, Zulus and Maoris at British universities. My son’s uni alone have students coming from 140 countries. And by your own admission, Americans, Canadians, South Africans and yes, even Australians are just a few of them. So you reckon these few Americans, Canadians, South Africans and Australians are heavily subsidising all the British universities?

We are not talking about those few foreigners that you mentioned here. I bet even purple wasn’t even thinking of these people when she took a swipe at the wealthy non-EU foreigners who bought their UK degrees. We are talking about the bulk of foreigners here. We are talking about the Chinese, the Indians, the Africans, other Orientals, and yes, the Arabs too, who send students to the UK by the planeloads year on year! These are the guys according to purple the British professors want to keep at all cost because they are their bread and butter.

As regards graduate medicine, particularly having done and failed school-leaver medicine, the chances of success is as good as my 85-year-old grandmother being crowned Miss Universe!

My apologies Alibali - and the Arabs too, of course! I actually did think of the Arabs after I’ve pressed the button, ‘Post Message’ in my previous message but then it was too late to edit anything. Anyway, I thought my point was made as it stood.

And of course, you’re right again to say not all foreigners who come to study in Britain are wealthy. I personally knew of an individual who had to think long and hard each afternoon whether to have lunch or not. And when he did have lunch, it was a couple of buns which cost 11p and a cup of tea.

And then there was another individual who literally lived off the apples in the backyard of his rented bedsit. Heaven knows how he survived in the winter months when the apples are long gone. I understand today he earns tons of money in the Far East. The resilience and determination of these foreigners have to be seen to be believed. And no, they didn’t buy their British degrees, they simply worked their balls off.

Thank you funnyperson for the kind message re my son. Far too often I feel, some parents are over protective of their offspring and thereby sending them the wrong message. Like I said, sometimes one’s got to be harsh in order to be kind. Kids must learn to pull their own weight and be responsible for themselves.

You just threw a spanner into purple’s work in her assertion that foreigners are treated leniently in British exams. Yes, now that you mentioned it, I remember reading not so long ago about the legal challenge taken against the Royal College of Practitioners for not promoting or perhaps failing too many foreigners or something. What’s the outcome of this case?

Purple, I'm sorry to hear your DC failed his 2nd year exam. To be honest, if he had a very good pass in his first year, and only marginally failed his 2nd year, the medical school may be a lot kinder to him, and let him resit the fail part of the exam.
In my DD medical school, many of her friends (British, EU, and Non EU ) are gaining around 70% to 80% in the exam. If your DCS only scrap pass the first year, and fail quite badly in his second year, ( not even gaining 50%) then he is not really up there. It is a very cruel fact.
No one want to be treated by a doctor that did not know half of the medical knowledge. Medical school need to vet their students to ensure they are up to the required standard before passing them to the next level of study.
DD is in her final year, and before Christmas the medical school just did a ranking of all students, before it is rank again nationally. You need to be in the top 30 % in order to have a good chance of gaining a good F1 post of your choice.

Boohoo are you saying that Mr Sokol has exaggerated what he experienced ?
Changeusnameus my son failed a resit in the summer which he passed in his first attempt but only had to resit it cause it was a 2 paper module and he failed the other paper thick meant he had to resit both. The uni refused to accept his first attempt which he passed as you must pass both papers together. Also when he was informed that he failed and had to do resits on August he wasn't given the failed Mark so he had no clue as to how much he failed by and this information has never been disclosed to him. My son did initially approach he student Union but they were unhelpful and suggested he appeal and req a recount which he was going to do a anyway. i have looked at the complaints made to the OIA and so many complaints by students have been justified on different grounds. Students have also issued claims against universities and some have been successful so universities can make mistakes I'm not saying the mistakes they make are intentional as someone in one of the post has suggested but if a mistake is identified universities have been known to close ranks and hide it.

Again I'm not racist and I'm not going against any particular race or ethnicity but universities have been criticised for being more like businesses these days which does make you think.

Forgive me, but if it makes you think, shouldn't it make you think that it's completely illogical to imagine academics marking (anonymous) papers and bumping up the marks of foreign students, to none of their personal benefit?

I still don't get what you mean purple. Universities being 'more like businesses'. What has that got to do with passing more foreigners? How the heck would we know who we are marking and whether that paper was written by a foreigner or not?!!! We've already told you it's all anonymous, second marked, sent to externals (from different universities).......!

Of course, if there was an error (eg. Marks added wrongly, marks I putted wrongly, a sheet was not marked when it should have been, those are human errors and can and should be rectified). But beyond that, academic judgement is final.

Am I understanding this correctly - at the end of the first year there was an exam which consisted of two papers, one the lad passed, and one that he failed. Then after resetting them because he had to do both - he failed the one he had passed a few months earlier.

Then in the second year he failed another exam.

Or is this topic only regarding one year of study and exams?

I'm a bit confused about an unfair cohort "failing" at Uni. Surely University exams are not marked in order to fail a set cohort (like O levels were back in our day. If the students all get the right answers then everyone can pass.

If it were true that the University were only worried about its wallet - it would actually pass everyone.

I read the Sokol blog ( and blogs are anecdotal - a blogger could say anything) and he gave one anecdote of one mistake.

Purple you seem to be thrashing around trying g to put the blame for your son's failure anywhere but with your son

People here may not be aware but UK marking scales place the pass mark at 40% (not 50%) so to fail means you achieve a mark of 39% or lower. Not a good number for any undergraduate, let alone one who is going to have to be making fast judgements on people's health!

But its all the pesky foreigners' fault -- they bribe the VC or something

(Parts of this post maybe a paranoid overreaction)

If it were true that the University were only worried about its wallet - it would actually pass everyone.

I have to agree and it did cross my mind because without the lad they must be down one set of fees

One more point to add, don't blame the nonEU students. In DD first year, the student gained the top prize come from Far East, she got a scholarship from the government to study here, and all her exams are 95% plus. Shockingly bright!

Ah, but they don't just bribe the VC, upthe.

The pressure the selection committee, years before their own matriculation, to hire a ninja VC who can creep about the department falsifying exam scripts at dead of night when the dogsbodies who mark have gone home ...

For me this thread has now reached a conclusion.

I may be wrong in my understanding but it appears to me the lad failed exams two years in a row and if thats the case there really is no more to be said because - its really quite sad it was all such a struggle for him after working so hard at school.

I wish him well wherever life leads him.