Failed 1st year medicine

[chickengoujon]

I am so upset and just looking for a bit of support really. My dd worked desperately hard to get into uni to do medicine. She volunteered at a local old people's home, worked at the gps, worked at the hospital, etc. She got fantastic A levels: A*, A, A, B in general studies. She is a lovely girl, really home loving and plesant.

When she went off to uni she was sad and then started to really live it up, not working very hard. She failed an exam after christmas but apparently that 'didn't matter'. She then failed 5 exams in the summer and spent all summer revising for her resits, only to fail again. After the uni asked her to leave last week she told me that she hadn't been eating properly for about 6 months. She is 5ft 8 and 7st 10. She is like a stick insect and I have been very concerned about her extreme thinness, but she reassured me that she was fine. She said how she had difficulty concentrating when revising and couldn't remember things - does anorexia do this? We didn't submit mitigations before her exams because I wasn't aware that she wasn't eating and she thought she was fine. Could we appeal? Is it too late? The uni seem totally disinterested and couldn't care less.

I feel so upset. Getting her in was so difficult and now it seems she has lost everything. She is totally devastated. Thanks for reading.

The main purpose of the FOIA request was to see whether students paying a lot more in fees each year were being given preferential treatment ie the uni is being lenient with them. I am aware that it is probably too Late for my son to do anything but this information may be used to help other students if brought to the attention of the public especially if universities are behaving infairly.

Purple in my experience very few non-EU students run into difficulties because of the amount of sheer hard graft they put in. They are a self-selected group who are very hard working and often aware of the financial pressures their families face back home so work their asses off to make sure they pass.

Occasionally home/EU students don't feel the same financial/societal pressures to persistently put in the work and so more fail.

I'd be cautious about your gung-ho and adversarial approach - the uni may become disinclined to help your son find an alternative path.

I then made a request for information under the freedom of information act asking for information as to how many non EU overseas students have been asked to withdraw in the last 5 years and to no surprise the number was zero which is an iducation that the universities prefer to keep the students who pay a substantial amount if money over home students who pay a lot less ( my son was paying around £3,500 per annum).

And God forbid the overseas students weren't asked to leave because they actually passed their exams.

The numbers of non-EU students admitted to Med Schools in the UK are tiny. The students have chosen to come here specifically and have passed the same rigorous interview process, often in what is a foreign language to them. Typically this tiny minority of students work their asses off, not least because they pay very high fees. As pp have said, all papers, particularly those of failing students, undergo a detailed and thorough process of scrutiny, essentially from the perspective of looking for extra marks to award. To suggest that the university gives them an easier time because they want to keep the fees is frankly delusional, particularly when he has failed quite spectacularly. I am surprised that he hasn't been given the chance to repeat the year, even without extenuating circumstances, but given this, I would be surprised if your MP took any interest at all. Trying to go above the heads of the people who conduct the assessment process by going to the Dean and then the MP is unlikely to result in a change of fortunes. Better to accept that he has failed and start figuring out what he wants to do now.

Purplerain, my son's med school mark exam scripts that bear only the candidate's number and not his/her name to ensure annonmity so there's absolutely no clue on the part of the examiner who the script(s) belongs to. Therefore, there's no discrimination nor favouritism in the marking of exam scripts which you seem to suggest.

For sure, exam scripts are marked critically and there's no room for complacency. In his 1st year, some 15% of his cohort failed! The 2nd year was not much better - 10% failed! And if you think things would improve as you progress further into the course, you're in for a shock. In his 3rd year, again, another 15% of his cohort was handed a fail! I've actually gone through this particular set of results with a fine comb and discovered many of the 15% who registered an overall fail had actually failed in one particular paper by only 1 mark! On the other papers they had scored magnificently, in the high 80's and a few in the low 90's!

Also, your perception that British/EU students are being discriminated by UK med schools does not hold water. The number of foreign non-EU medical students who are admitted to British med schools is strictly regulated by the government and they are a very small number! For sure, those who are admitted are very high fliers and many of them would be on their own government's scholarship of one kind or another.

And why pick on med schools? Other non medic foreign students who study in British unis pay a high tuition fee too. Are you also saying unis are discriminating against British students in other faculties too because they pay a lower fee?

Even if an appeal was successful, he would still be the student who scored lowest in the exams. There are further exams after the initial degree - some of which later on have a variable pass mark set so that the lowest scoring third of the cohort all fail. If he's not in the top half of the class in year 2 he doesn't have much hope of lasting the whole distance anyway. Surely it's better to know early?

There is no bias by fee-status of the student. The academics generally have only disdain for such petty issues, they care only for nurturing the brightest minds to the highest success. It is not remotely surprising that people who have gone to more effort to get to university and have more invested in it are working harder and achieving higher.

Your son clearly hasn't been taught to stand on his own two feet and take personal responsibility for his actions and their outcome, or you wouldn't be getting so involved in appealing, so maybe that sheds some light on why he didn't get the marks he hoped for.

None of my children/their cousins/their friends who were all overseas students in UK and Australian universities have come home with anything less than a very good first in their chosen subjects. They have then all gone on to excel at Masters level and about 12 of them have gone on to do Phd's. Others have achieved very highly in their chosen profession where there was very a professional qualifacation to attain.

They worked their backsides of to achieve success and to suggest people are buying their degree by default is a case of the green eyed monster and down right vindictiveness.

Stop teaching your son that its not his fault he failed because one day he will have to wake up and face the reality that it was.

Stop looking for excuses that will make you feel better. Excuses that are saying to your son my mother can't accept me for who I am.

The reality is your son didn't make the grade in medical school and it means you're more than likely not going to be able to talk of 'my son the Dr'.

Live with it.

some of these comments are moving towards bullying. It's understandable that if your child has given up two years of their life to their dream and runs into problems you wll be upset for them. Sometimes we do and say unwise things when upset. Far enough to point that out but in a helpful way not joining a pack

Purplerainn123 your son's options are either (if the school will let him ) to repeat a year (with the risk that he may fail again or in a later year), to obtain a degree in something else and apply for graduate medicine or to take another degree and choose a different career. If it was my child I would encourage them towards the last of these but I have never been keen on my child becoming a doctor. I don't see it as a great career for very able young people. Even if you think differently medicine would be a very, very hard road for him to take now. If the school aren't offering the option of a resit year then its probably because they don't think he will make it through the rest of the course. Although it's rare to fail the final year it does happen and it's far harder on the student then.

To get a place at medical school he must be an able young man with a lot going for him on top of good academic ability. He passed the first year of medical school and should be able to transfer to the second year, probably not the third year, of a related degree. He could look at things like medical sales, pharmacy, medical research or he might prefer to move completely away from the medical field. There are lots of options for able young people, find out what he would like now and support him through this. But if he still wants medicine you have to help him realise that may not be an option.

Wow! I have only read a little of this but the vitriol against purple is quite breath taking. Perhaps a little compassion for purple and her DS would be in order? Medicine is hard and just because he has failed doesn't mean he hasn't worked hard. Also, why have a go that purple is too involved? Maybe she is, but she cares and I'm sure the international students' parents would be involved, should their DCs fail. Some really nasty and very judgemental comments on here. Purple asked for help, not spite.

Well said already, very helpful, positive advice. Your comment hadn't appeared when I was typing mine. Hope purple reads it. Restores my faith in kind, helpful people .

Compassion when she's gone as far as investigating whether her son was failed because international students are given an unfair bite of the cherry? Not likely.

As for her asking for help not spite?

Well perhaps thats what she should have done - asked for help from the Uni instead of spitefully investigating what she did.

Perhaps she could now use the freedom of information act to find out how many privately educated students pass compared to those out of the local comprehensive - because lets face it she's still needing someone to blame for her son not passing.

Oh and yes I would be involved in any of my kids had failed but only to ask what they had been doing to fail.

Would I blame it on the Uni and say they failed them because they were foreigners? Absolutely not and not just because its would be a cowardly way of dealing with a situation.

” some of these comments are moving towards bullying. . .Far enough to point that out but in a helpful way not joining a pack”

Moving towards bullying and joining a pack? Perhaps you may want to be reminded that this is a global forum and posters are free to express their opinions and not necessarily joining a pack to do so.

”Wow! I have only read a little of this but the vitriol against purple is quite breath taking. . .Some really nasty and very judgemental comments on here.”

Some really nasty and very judgemental comments indeed to go online to slander British med school(s) for giving preferential treatment to foreigners because they pay a higher fee. That’s not to mention the defamation levied on our foreign visitors that their British qualifications are bought with cash! I smell a rat here that this is a racist post. And I’m actually stunned that there was thought to involve the local MP as if (s)he had nothing else better to do. And what can the MP do? A university is an independent body, an entity with its own rules and is not answerable to anyone else as to how it awards its degrees/qualifications.

Yes, please think carefully before writing some nonsense here.

”. . . your son's options are either . . . to repeat a year. . . to obtain a degree in something else and apply for graduate medicine. . .”

Don’t know what kind of option is that frankly. Graduate medicine entry is much, much harder to achieve than standard school-leaving entry. Two years into the course and already struggling, I would sit down calmly and revaluate whether medicine is the right course for your son. It’s not beneficial or realistic to blame everyone for failure.

I smell a rat here that this is a racist post.

I completely agree with you.

Fairywoods the only "spite" shown here is "purple*'s assumptions about university academics' lack of ethics, laced with a nice dose of racism.

Yes, it's difficult when one's children face failure and disappointment. But the adult parent response is to help one's child recoup, recover and look forward. Not encourage them to think it's all the fault of those cheating professors and foreigners.

I really don't think purple was being racist and yes she is looking for an answer, especially as her DS wasn't allowed to see his script. Maybe Medicine isn't for him, but I thought some of the responses to purple were very harsh. She's obviously stressed by what her DS is going through and some kindness (whilst pointing out that she's got it wrong about internationals) would have been a more positive thing to do. The world needs kindness.

The answer is very simple - her son failed his exam. It happens and its not the end of the world because the lad will probably go on to other things in life that are better suited to him.

And yes, the world does need kindness. It also needs less racism.

If people want kindness shown to them then its a good idea not to be a racist.

And I will say it again, there is still the fact the OP could investigate how private school pupils on the course do in comparison to those who went to the local comprehensive. Are the private school pupils pushed through at the expense of the others because anything else wouldn't be cricket? Or were they not such an easy excuse to target?

Purples post stinks to high heavens.

”I really don't think purple was being racist. . .”

fairywoods, for your own good, you really ought to learn to read between the lines of something, anything, that is written. Just read this again and you’ll see why I said I smelled a rat that purple’s post was racist:

”I then made a request for information under the freedom of information act asking for information as to how many non EU overseas students have been asked to withdraw in the last 5 years and to no surprise the number was zero which is an iducation that the universities prefer to keep the students who pay a substantial amount if money over home students who pay a lot less”

The intent was serious and official. The uni was legally bound to answer a question posted under the Freedom of Information Act! Without a question, purple had suspected foul play and favouritism towards foreign non-EU students (because they pay more money) and had demanded to know, not just for a particular year, but for the last 5 years if any foreigners were asked to leave.

Purple’s answer to her own question was testament to her (obvious) racism, ”and to no surprise the number was zero” which she further compounded by saying it was an indication that the unis prefer to keep students who pay a substantial amount of money, etc.

If all this is not blatantly racist, then I don’t know what is. Why ask about non-EU foreigners being dismissed? And like a poster said above, why not ask about public school students being dismissed instead? Or the number of female candidates being dismissed over the last five years?

No, it’s got to be non-EU foreigners because they are easier to kick about with little cone back from them. I don’t hear, for example, any complaints about non-EU foreigners heavily subsidising British unis. And if truth be known, the calibre of many of these foreign med students can put many of their British peers in the shade!

Sometimes it is necessary to be harsh in order to be kind. I’ve earlier quickly browsed through this entire thread from the start and was astounded how quickly time flies. This particular thread of mine posted almost 2½ years ago reminded me of being harsh to be kind.

Then, DS was in a state when his 1st Year exams drew near. He thought he was going to fail and literally panicked and complained hysterically that he couldn’t remember anything that he had learnt and he would go into the examination hall with a blank mind. He had approached me expecting compassion and understanding. Naturally I felt sorry for him and wanted to give him a big hug there and then. But then I thought, here’s this lad admitting defeat (to me in private) before he’d even sat the first paper. It just cannot be true.

So, instead of a hug, he got a slap on the wrist, so to speak. I had to tell him in no uncertain terms if Medicine wasn’t meant for him, then go in and sit the exams and show me the failed papers afterwards. And if that was the case, then we’d sit down again and look at another direction other than Medicine. After all, I don’t want to see him as a half-baked doctor with blood on his hands in a future date if he’s really not up to scratch. Yes, it’s as serious as that, we are talking about life and death here!

And whilst he was at it, give it a good shot for what it’s worth. This harshness seemed to have straightened him up psychologically and he entered the exams with renewed vigour. Not only were his fears totally unfounded, he emerged passing the exams finding himself amongst the top set! Since then there was no looking back. Today, he’s part of the furniture in his med school, showing prospective medics around the school and also working there each summer for a wage!

any complaints about non-EU foreigners heavily subsidising British unis. And if truth be known, the calibre of many of these foreign med students can put many of their British peers in the shade!

Yes, and yes.

The xenophobia in this country depresses me sometimes.

peteneras I wonder if sometimes doing the "pull yourself together, lass/lad" sometimes shows that we believe in our child's ability to succeed, even if they don't?

I think that sometimes we don't model/teach the right sort of confidence -- confidence coming from courage & resilience, rather than cosseting. I wonder if sometimes we need to push our DCs more into the "have a go at it" frame of mind. And I wonder about that with my students too. I try to push them, and tell them I'm pushing them, because I'm confident they can do it.

peteneras I think purple was actually querying whether students who pay substantially higher fees are given any favouritism. It was nothing to do with racism, there was no indication of what race other than non-EU internationals. Jumping on the racism band wagon suggests you have a chip on your shoulder. Personally, I would not have done the FOI request, but the question was over money not racism. Well done for being such a Tiger Mum peteneras and for being so condescending.

fairywoods, when one talks about 'non-EU' foreigners, are we talking about the white French, Germans, Irish, Belgians, etc.? Or do the white Swiss, Norwegians, Danes, Canadians, Americans, Australians etc. send tens of thousands of their nationals to British learning institutions for further studies? The answer to both the above questions is a definite 'No'!

And so who are those wealthy non-EU foreigners who send their offspring by the planeloads to Britain for further studies? It's the Chinese, the Hongkongers, the Indians, the Africans, the Koreans, etc. And they are of a different race to the white British and Europeans.

And the Arabs. Arabs like my children, their cousins and their friends.

All clever kids who slog their guts out to get a good degree.

And I really do wish we could knock this wealthy foreigners label on the head and stop referring to parent as those with cash to splash, Yes of course there are those who can comfortably educate their children abroad, but those who do it without the help of a scholarship usually make great sacrifices to do so. Sacrifices that include kids who've been abroad to study then paying for a sibling to study once they're home and are earning.

Im absolutely disgusted by Purple because of the insult she has heaped on the UK system of education which is still so much admired world wide, as well the insult she has heaped on kids who work their backsides off, just so she can say to her son - there there never mind, its all those pesky fee paying foreigners fault that you failed.

Thank you Fairywoods for clarifying to the others on this forum what racism means and they should think twice before making such a terrible accusation and calling someone a racist. I was not born in the UK and my family is from abroad, I have family and friends who have come from abroad to study in the UK so I understand your point Alibalibumblebee. I was never mistrusting of universities until a read a newspaper article ( felixonline.co.uk/comment/3136/failed-your-exams-huh/) written by an ex-examiner stating that he had been asked by a student to re-mark his script and he was advised by a senior person in his office to ignore the request and to tell the student that the mark was final, however upon revisiting the script although the mark did not alter much but he did find errors in the marking which had been missed and this is not a one off case. At least the university could allow my son to see his exam script which would clear the matter and there would be no further argument and whatever mark given would be acceptable. As a parent I have a responsibility to my child to ensure that he has not been treated unfairly and I'm sure any responsible caring parent would do what they could to try and make sure that no injustice has been done. That is all I am doing. Our universities in the UK are not brilliant they are always being criticised for something or another so why am I being attacked for doing the same?