Oxbridge, hypothetical question

[Changebagsandgladrags]

Just looking at the results of my local comp.

The highest scoring GCSE candidate got 4A (inc Maths & Physics) and 7As. Would they automatically be excluded by Oxbrudge selection computers because of not having enough A?

Bear in mind, this girl's results are significantly better than the rest of the year, the two next best have 2A and 1A, after that there are a couple of all As and then about 5 with a mix of A/B etc.

The school is normally well under the national average.

I don't think there is an automatic selection computer at either Oxford or Cambridge!

there may be a chance as the school is below average but in general on statistics those grades are not high enough.

At my DCs' schools - boys and girls separately - they showed us stats on entrants and 95% of all successful applicants have 8A* or more. You can apply if you have less, but the chances are more limited.

And incidentally, lots of those, inlcuding my own eldest 2, apply with 8A* and dont get in...

But you never know if you dont try - everyone has a chance - eneryone's circumstances are different...

We are a 'bog standard' comp - some 6A plus have been interviewed and 2 got 'pooled'. Our 10A got offered place but he was a stellar Maths geek who loved problem solving and maths games to the extent it was all he did.

Look at the 2012 prospectus as it shows the percentage of applications short listed for interview and the percentage of successful applications for each course. Bearing in mind the numbers of kids with top grades almost across the board it shows that entry is tough.

But the places have to be offered to someone

No - they will take the average passrate of the school into account. I went to Cambridge with (relatively) very low A level grades, partially allowed because of the school I went to. I was the first person from my school to ever go to Oxbridge so knew nothing about it but never a problem when I was there.

They don't have automatic selection computers! Because the applicants are divided up by college and subject each tutor gets a few applicants to look at and if you've been advised to apply they'll check the school out.

DS1 got 4 A and 7 A's at GCSE 7 years ago and DS2 got 7 A and 5 A's at GCSE 3 years ago at a low achieving local comp.
They both had interviews at Cambridge and Oxford respectively, but neither was offered a place. I had always hoped that the school they came from to achieve those results may have been taken into account, but not sure that it was.
Not so sure mine were up to the interview probably.
Think you have to really nail it in a personal statement and AS / A level results to even get an interview at Oxford, as I did read that if you got to interview stage then you probably are what they want on paper, but still on the course DS2 wanted he was up against 3 others for each place at interview ( pre interview about 12 applicants per place).
When DS1 was interviewed at Cambridge, I believe at that time as long as you met their criteria you got an interview ( so more chance of getting to interview at Cambridge, but not sure if this is the same now).

My daughter had 4 As, 4 As, a B and a C at GCSE and was offered a place at Cambridge this year. Someone in her year had 10 or 11 As and was rejected by Oxford. I suppose GCSEs can be used as a deciding factor if AS results, personal statement etc are all of a similar standard, but otherwise, aren't as important :)

see the Cambridge Admissions Handbook and scroll down to 2.6.4 for how they score GCSEs and allow for a "school" score.

Cambridge and Oxford are fortunate in being incredibly wealthy and as such they devote a considerable amount of mney to their selection process. Those grades are perfectly fine for a potential Oxbridge candidate, the context of them is taken into account (as is explicitly stated by many universities). I had a lad in my tutor group apply for an be accepted for an incredibly popular degree at a very prestigious Oxford College, he even had a couple of Bs in his GCSEs. He did however get 2A* and 2As at A-level and was a fantastic eccentric with loads of good work experience in the area he wanted to go into.

While a student with 4 A*s at GCSE will not automatically be ruled out if these are the best the school can do, she/he will then have to display a quick, sharp mind at interview, plus strong knowledge of course-related school subjects. Sadly, many comprehensive school teachers do not have the time to practise any of this. So, applicants need to read all they can, both in academic terms and about the interview itself.

No such a student would not be automatically ruled out. Their school's average results are part of the contextual data which will be applied to adjust their results. Those results are objectively very good.

I'm a bit surprised that your local comp publishes names of students with detailed breakdowns of their results though OP. Presumably you know this student and know she wants to apply to Oxford or Cambridge? Not all clever students do.

The admissions process varies between Oxford and Cambridge and between different subjects too. For Oxford this student would most likely have to sit an additional test which would play a significant part in the selection process for interview, along with GCSE's. If not, she'll have to submit written work. So the GCSE's are never used as a single factor. Cambridge places emphasis on AS results to a much greater degree. Both have special systems for attempting to widen participation in any event and this student might fall within the scope of those rules.

There are some clearly quite dreadful books on the market about Oxford and Cambridge; students might be well advised to turn up au naturel and save money on poor quality 'advice'.

milliways was that the right link?

OP both universities are looking for students with a real interest in their subject and the ability to demonstrate that at interview. Admisison tests are increasingly used to select for interview at Oxford, Cambridge like 90+ in modules at AS level. If a student doesn't have high grades they may need to have more other things to demonstrate their enthusiasm and ability to do the course. Good advice is essential and students at your local comp may not get much support in applying to Oxbridge.

If the family have no experience of Oxbridge then some books are helpful as are the free online resources on the Oxford applications website. There may be books in the school or local library that can be borrowed but you need to be aware that the process seems to have changed over time. My impression is that there is more emphasis now on being given something to read and discuss and fewer wierd questions to test how you think. There is some excellent advice on mumsnet and on a website called thestudentroom but you need to filter it carefully.

If at all possible students considering Oxbridge should visit one or both in July of their GSCE year or September of first year AS and go to a talk about the admissions process. It is possible to do this later but the earlier you go the more time they have to prepare and a visit will focus their minds.

I love the fact that you entertain the possibility of information on the Oxford website not being free ellisbell!

And how do you suggest those who don't have your experience 'filter'? That's the problem.

The safest thing is for students to start at the Oxford and Cambridge websites, go to the Open Days and thereafter apply commonsense, because elsewhere there can be some really poor advice.

One of my DC has been approached by a well known commercial firm to give 'interviews' but refused. They offered £20 apparently (the firm keeping more like a hundred) but she declined on principle in any event.

I'm more interested in the fact that this school gives such detailed results information including a name. Hopefully the information was just picked up from news of high achievers in a local paper, otherwise it seems intrusive and wrong.

I think that someone with 4 As at GCSE would stand a better chance at Oxbridge if the As are in maths and sciences, and they are applying to do maths or science.

We had a parents' evening with Oxbridge admission tutors at DSs' school, and they actually said this, backed up with stats. It's perfectly possible for someone to be a maths/science genius and at the same time not be able to shine in humanities, languages etc.

I meant Oxbridge applications - link to the website www.oxbridgeapplications.com/free-online-resources/

It's always better to listen to admission tutors than those with no special expertise.

I'm looking at secondary schools and lots of the prospectuses contain details of a select handful of students who've obtained good grades - it's a "Look! It is possible to achieve decent academic results here" thing to reassure ambitious parents.

Similarly many secondary schools hand out a full list of leavers at open day, including their old primary schools and where they're going next.

Glad you agree with me about relying on official sources now ellis, so you're a convert? :)

I think the interview is all important at Oxbridge. I went to Cambridge and applied almost 20 years ago (crikey that makes me feel old!) and had 8As and 2 Bs in my GCSES. (No A*s in those days). I got in and know it is down to my interview.

I am still friends with my Director of Studies. She tells me, in her experience, pretty much everyone who applies could be successful (i.e. has the academic ability to get a 2.1 or better- of course, for various reasons not all do!) She says sometimes she just feels like throwing the applications up in the air and catching them- probably as good a way as recruiting an any. Instead, she interviews the candidates and chooses those she thinks she will enjoy teaching and that will provide a good cohort taken together (i.e. work well and bounce ideas off each other).

Yes, which is why the idea of a 'type' is such nonsense.

And what your DoS says explains why some of the I love me types fail to get in, despite reams of A*'s.

ellis, you aren't connected with oxbridgeapplications.com by any chance? I just notice you've mentioned them frequently in your last few posts.

Dilys that sounds ok and I know that lists of leavers' destinations include names as often as not, but if the school published a full list with each and every GCSE taken and its result that could be pretty diminishing for the lower achievers, that's all.

one comp near me details every single sixth form leavers name, exact A2/AS results and destination course/university on their website yellowstone regardless of whether they achieved 5As at A2 or just one e at AS. They also give GCSE results for everyone scoring 5 or more As and As (including GCSE results of children entering the school for the sixth form from elsewhere), which is a huge list as it's a top comp, but obviously not everyone by a long way. They have done this for years, so it would be technically possible to correlate the GCSE and A level results with destination course/university if you saved the results each year. Like you I've always been a bit over the lack of respect of individuals right to privacy that it gives.

That depends on what you mean by "official sources", yellowstone, I'm not a convert to insulting the kind tutors who offer advice on mumsnet. The official websites can be vague and hearing from those who put it into practise can also be helpful. You do like to be insulting - the oxbridge applications website offers good free advice, I mention them about as often as I recommend the student room and no, I'm not paid by either.

I most certainly do not like to be insulting, nor do I insult, but I will correct patently wrong advice and state a decent alternative source for correct information. Politely usually, not imperiously, unlike some :) A challenge is not an insult and I'm not especially scared of challenging Cambridge tutors on subjects like this, though i might keep a discreet distance with Astrophysics. The advice that a couple of A's will cut it at Cambridge was plain wrong and therefore unhelpful. I think I've said this before but I don't think you can tell exactly who is and who isn't a tutor or otherwise well informed ellis. MN is intended to be a forum to help disseminate accurate advice, not a forum to fawn on tutors.

By 'official sources' I meant the official Cambridge website. No MNer, whoever they might be or claim to be, is official. Which is why I referred you back on that occasion to the Trinity website, to settle your quarrel.

I don't think Astrophysics is available as a Part I subject at Cambridge, so there probably won't be any Astrophysics tutors admitting students...

Thank you for that GrendelsMum but it was a just shorthand for saying I'd hang back on the substance of many subjects, including anything scientific, but that I'm ok on the more obvious and less cerebral admissions stuff. Mostly!