Oxbridge again, I'm afraid - if they really want you there, what offer do they make in terms of grades?

[MikaelBlomkvist]

In the old days, if they really wanted you, they would make your place conditional on three Cs or even lower.

What happens now if you do really well in their own admission tests, and have done well in school, the school sing your praises to the skies, and you have a fab personal statement?

Do they still say they want three A*s? And let you slip through their fingers if you fuck mess up one of your A level exams and get a B?

last year in ds year those from cambridge who got offers ALL got AAA bar one who got AA*AA offer from Churchill iirc

ds did get a letter from his college saying something like - if you don't get the grades - ring us with your UMS scores which was nice

Thanks, NotanOtter. So I suppose your ds could've said Well, I royally mucked up one of the papers - was feeling under the weather yadayada - and they could've still let him in. So that's reassuring.

Asking for AAAA - four of them that high - is IMO a lot. But I can see why. A*AA seems a lot more achievable to me.

From what I understand, universities get quite heavily penalised financially if they take more students than their quota (and they lose out if they go under their quota too), so I'm sure these factors influence their decisions on the 'near miss' candidates as much if not more than any feelings of 'we liked him at interview' that they might have.

That's a good point, Snorkie. I know private schools have to do that kind of triage to get the right number of kids in class. Best not to be a 'near miss' candidate if you can possibly avoid it.

Mikael my son took a ridiculous number of A levels but LUCKILY his offer was only for three

some of his friends had offers of four

I am now on with the next child (WEEP) and contemplating whether or not it is more sensible for her to only sit three A levels. She cannot get an offer on what she is not doing....

Am I being a bit thick- will this jeopardise her chances in any way?

Any learned types on here know??

I don't know NotanOtter. Cambridge seemed to be saying at an open event that a friend of ds attended (ie this is about 3rd hand info and may not be reliable) that they are coming to expect 4 A2s from independent school applicants but not so much from state school people (not sure about state grammar schools though).

Even if they only make their offers based on 3, what you just can't tell is whether or not an extra one makes it more likely they will give you an offer to start with. I'm fairly sure though that it's better to just do 3 and get top grades than do 4 if it means that your grades won't be so high. In other words, only do 4 if you can get top grades in all of them (but how do you know this in advance?).

NOTANOTTER I am by no means an expert but ds was doing 4 AS and doing very well the lecturer at the uni advised him to drop one to increase his studying time on the 3 they would take into account.

It's very worrying having this level of uncertainty, isn't it? What I have heard tends to be along the lines of what Dracschick is saying, and Snorkie.

Ds is likely to do Maths and Further Maths, for which he won't have to slog in the way you have to for, say, English; History; and probably Economics. My concern is that he could easily drop marks in History and Economics by not swotting enough, by messing up, by missing out a question etc etc. Actually, I think I would rather he did 4 A2 Levels and have one "spare" - I don't think he will be that much affected by the amount of work required by 4 as opposed to 3 - he'll just do what he deems necessary, which may or may not be enough.

What year is he in now Mikael? Does he know yet what A-levels (aside form maths) he wants to do? When does he have to choose?

As it happens a fourth subject won't necessarily give him extra flexibility as sometimes the offer is for specified A levels. Eg a friend's dd had a Cambridge offer for Nat Sci of AAA (the year before A*s), but although she was doing 4A2s they didn't care how she did in French but specified the As had to be in her maths & science subjects (she achieved 4 As in the end).

Ds is very mathematical by the way and is finding Economics A level quite straightforward too. I think it's a much easier subject than say English/History for natural mathematicians.

The only other thing I'd say is that the maths + f. maths students are very much more likely than others to continue 4 subjects to A level - whether this is because they are brighter on average to start with or that maths + f. maths is less work than two distinct subjects for them or both I don't know, but what it does mean is that when making university applications for maths/engineering subjects at top universities a lot of the other applicants will have 4 subjects, so that does put a certain pressure on them to keep up 4.

The work level is higher in year 13 because A2's are harder than AS's - DD2 is very happy to have got rid of History this year as the essay writing and coursework would have been very time consuming.

I think the general consensus for most universities is that 3 good grades is better, at DD2's school it is very rare to do 4, there is just one potential medic who has kept on all four. Last years Oxbridge entrants all had 3.

Whether its a good idea to have a "spare" is a different question! It could be a good idea or it could drag everything down. Seeing DD2's workload this year (Maths, Further Maths and Chemistry) I am happier that she is doing three and she has a some "spare" capacity to step up her workload when she gets nearer to her January modules. Also when they start the STEP preparation after Christmas there will be time for that.

Cross posts Snorkie! I think the Maths/Further Maths thing depends on how its taught. Some schools do all of Maths in year 12 and then Further Maths in year 13, some treat them as one and a half A levels for teaching time and some offer them as discrete subjects with full timetabling. Also some schools don't even offer the full Further Maths A level. Whether or not you carry on with 4 depends on your school situation as well as ability.

That is very true webwiz. There are so many different ways schools can offer maths + f. maths.

Your dd is a year ahead of ds. Has she made her UCAS application/had any offers yet (some of the standard maths offers seem very high this year)? Which STEP paper(s) will she sit and does her school offer coaching for them? (Sounds from what you say yes). They allegedly need a lot of preparation, so I think your dd is wise to make room in her life for that. I suspect mathematics courses are 95% interested in maths results and barely worry about other things an applicant might be doing, but as you say, different approaches probably suit different students.

So many questions as I suspect I will be where you are next year.

Slightly off at a tangent to the OP but this is interesting - experience of oxbridge interviews

When ds spoke to the lecturer at uni she asked him which 4 A levels he'd taken at As level and advised him which one to drop - she also said as did the admissions officer at another uni that rather than studying 4 A levels they prefer to see some aspect of employment or another element of time usage in Ds case its the fact he helps care for his brother who has a disability.

Snorkie her application only went in one friday so she has just had acknowledgments so far. I think for Maths at university they just want candidates who are very good at Maths and aren't particularly interested in other things.

DD2 will be taking STEP for Bath (hopefully if she gets an offer!). One of her Further Maths teachers is quite keen for her and the other girl applying for Maths at university to take it as it a way to prepare for university level maths whether or not its required in an offer. As there are only 3 of them in the Further Maths class they go quite quickly so they should be able to do some preparation in school as well as on their own.

DD2 had glandular fever last year so I am very wary of her overloading herself so that probably colours my view on the 3 v 4 A2 argument!

Oh, good luck with the offers then! I think you are absolutely right about 3 vs 4 A levels, especially for maths, and as 4 is v. unusual at her school, and the glandular fever too (relapses can be horrid).

I also think that now there is an A* grade that tips the balance more in favour of doing few better too.

Ds says he wants to do STEP whether he needs it or not (but might change his mind) - it's complicated a bit by the fact that the teacher who usually gives extra STEP help is retiring this year, so we're not sure what support will be available.

Ponders how I might persuade ds to give one up next year...

Thanks for all the information here - I may have to come back and digest it more when I'm drunk more relaxed.

Coffeicing, thanks for that link, very interesting.

Ds is in Year 12. He doesn't really seem to see maths as "work", so I'm not worried about overloading with maths; and he generally learns quickly (photographic memory) when he puts his mind to it, so I think he has the capacity to do 4 A levels.

This discussion is helping me get my head round it all!

BTW I think ds will be looking at Cambridge, Imperial, Warwick and Bath to apply to; probably like your dd, Webwiz. Do they all use the same STEP exams, or have their own? Good luck with her offers!

Sorry to hear about the glandular fever, too. Actually I have a bit of a similar thing with ds - he gets migraines which knock him out of action, and I have to dance around at exam time feeding him slices of banana every hour etc etc.

Contrary to the impression I may have given , I'm not obsessed with Oxbridge - just that since he's in with a chance, he might as well give it a good go. As people have said, he can always go and do post-grad stuff there anyway.

The STEP papers are all managed by the ssame outfit (not quite sure who) but there are 3 papers 1, 2 and 3 which get progressively harder. 1 and 2 more or less cover the standard A level syllabus and 3 the standard f. maths syllabus (though the questions are much harder than A level ones). You can take either one or two papers (papers 1 and 3 are held simultaneously and you can only sit one).

Cambridge offers are usually for papers 2 and 3 unless the candidate hasn't done f. maths in which case the offer would be for papers 1 and 2. Most colleges expect candidates to achieve 1,1 with a few offers at 1,2 (STEP results are graded S,1,2 with S being highest and very rare).

I think Warwick and Bath only ask for one STEP result and in some cases it can be substituted with an AEA (Advanced Extension Award) result instead. I think their offers are for any level of STEP (so paper 1 would be the easiest choice, but sometimes people try both either to give a better chance of success or just because they can).

Ds was thinking of Cambridge but was rather taken by Oxford when he visited, so not sure now. He liked Warwick, didn't like Bath, doesn't want to be in London and hasn't thought any further. There's also a possibility he may apply for physics and not maths - he's wavering a little there. He's planning to do 4 A2s next year, and I suspect he will anyway, unless he really messes up this years exams.

Thanks, Snorkie, tons of info! We are a little unsure about London as well. Ds has never visited Oxford or Cambridge, but knows people who did maths at Cambridge - a rather subjective reason for choosing it!

I think it's a lot to ask for them to study all the course details of all the unis, as well as doing their homework, revision, etc. Ds won't continue physics - he may drop it at the end of this year. So he knows what subject he wants to study, maybe we should be grateful for that. He keeps raving about the beauty of maths.

ds interviews at cambridge last year was just proper science and maths - one was an horrific grilling with a bloke keep saying 'WHY do you say that WHY?' when ds talked his way through the question...

no small talk at all!

Mikael, I ran across this today. Read the article entitled "Collective response to an enquiry regarding the number of A level subjects studied" It's quite old (2006) but seems to be saying the Cambridge smile upon physical scientists/mathematicians/emgineers doing 4 A levels when one is further maths as that isn't seen as difficult for them as a whole separate subject and is very beneficial.