International Baccalaureate

[StandingAtTheBackLookingStupid]

My ds has just started studying for the IB and although he is enjoying it very much, so far, my dh and I are having a bit of a wobble as to whether it will be the right decision for him in the long run.

It seems a good fit for him, both as he is a good allrounder and likes the idea of not having to drop any core subjects and also because he took International GCSEs { was home educated }.

Our thought process was that as it seems to be increasingly competitive to get a University place that the IB might set him apart and give him a better chance. The downside seems to be that Universities have higher requirements for IB candidates than A levels, which is something that worries us.

We found out today that a couple of the brightest students in ds's year have jumped ship and gone to study A levels and this has heightened our concerns about the IB. I'm worried that as we have been home educating for so long, our lack of mainstream education experience could mean that we are steering ds in the wrong direction. He has his sights set on going to University and we want to help him maximise his chances of doing so.

Does anyone have any advice about how favourably or unfavourably the IB is viewed by Universities and why the entry requirements are higher than for A levels ?

"Our thought process was that as it seems to be increasingly competitive to get a University place that the IB might set him apart and give him a better chance. The downside seems to be that Universities have higher requirements for IB candidates than A levels, which is something that worries us."

It appears that the exchange rate between A Levels and IB is unrealistic. I have a cousin who was IB educated abroad who missed her main offer, and an analysis of pass rates implies that she was asked to get an IB result that

That is exactly what we are worried about, tokyo, especially as this is only the third year of ds's school offering the IB, so they don't have a lot of experience.

What I really don't understand is why Universities are over estimating the exchange rate for the IB. The work load is huge and the qualification seems much broader than A levels so I don't understand why Universities seem to require candidates to get almost impossibly high marks, higher than for A levels.

"The work load is huge and the qualification seems much broader than A levels"

And there, in sentence, is the problem.

No one appears to give a shit about breadth, especially in science and engineering. There, I've said it. They say they do, but in reality most departments want students to arrive with strong skills in a known set of pre-requisites. This means that they can teach at a known level without having to do all that messy differentiation stuff that school teachers do (have you noticed how university academics who write about education are in favour of mixed ability teaching, but want AAB to get into their lecture theatre? Odd, no?)

For science and engineering, the prerequisites are Maths and Physics, plus if appropriate Chemistry or Biology. Speak a foreign language? Know about the dark ages? Why do you want to waste your time? Given two candidates, one with "more" maths and physics, the other with "more" breadth, they'll take the former. The reverse for humanties. They want English, History and maybe a foreign language. Did some maths at AS? Fancy yourself at physics? What are we, lecturing to geeks or something?

The problem with the IB is that the breadth comes (so it is believed - the reality may be rather different) at the expense of depth, and UK universities by and large want depth. For other countries, it may be completely different: I believe the IB is highly regarded for US universities, where specialisation comes later because of how US 16-18 education works. You can argue until you're blue in the face that it's unfair, but I suspect that right now, the IB can be as high workload and as broad as you want, but it isn't an A Level, and therefore gets lumped with all those "OK, if we have to" equivalences which aren't given a good rate of exchange.

I really hope I'm wrong. But everything I hear from academics bemoaning the lack of depth in their undergraduates says that arguing that depth is a substitute isn't going to get you very far. Sad. Please someone tell me I'm wrong.

tokyonambu - while I am absolutely in agreement with you about the maths/physics requirements for engineering and the chemistry/biology requirements for science courses (basically that A-levels give more depth than almost any other school leaving examination in Europe), I don't think that the IB and other, broader based, school leaving examinations penalise candidates for courses that have less specific knowledge requirements and that are rather looking for students with a specific set of skills.

Everyone ought to do maths and their mother-tongue until age 18 - the A-level system is very unusual (by international comparison) in that it allows pupils to drop those crucial subjects. And UK pupils are increasingly in competition for places at UK universities with pupils from the EU (who are not in the overseas quota) who will have better general knowledge and general skills than they do.

There are kids with IB who go to Oxbridge though (including science). And if you even consider the Dutch Universities, I'd have thought IB would be values more highly.

ACS has done some research on the acceptablity of the IB, so I would have a look at their website, or even talk to them. (And I do mean the American school).

"Everyone ought to do maths and their mother-tongue until age 18"

But you'll then need two, distinct maths courses, because the content of classic A Level Pure and Applied is completely useless outside the places its intended for. Poor numeracy amongst arts graduates is a real problem but you won't solve that with anything that looks like the current A Level. You'd need a course that was heavy on statistics and data interpretation. The native tongue thing I don't disagree with, and a real advantage American engineers have is Freshman Comp.

But that's my point about "I really hope I'm wrong". The reality is that when applying for a UK university that has defined entry requirements, anything other than A Levels is going to be looked at harder than A Levels would be. It dates back to when the universities controlled the A Level syllabus, I suspect.

"And UK pupils are increasingly in competition for places at UK universities with pupils from the EU...who will have better general knowledge and general skills"

Except they aren't taking the IB either, so have greater problems of equivalency. And at the moment, as I understand it, far more EU students apply to do science and engineering and medicine than, say, English or History, and therefore the A Level issue becomes even more substantial. EU students may have better general knowledge in many areas, but not if the topic at hand is the English novel of the 1960s.

"There are kids with IB who go to Oxbridge though (including science)."

Obviously. The question is, if they're asked for an IB score that only 1% of candidates get, are their peers offering A Levels also offered a score that only 1% of candidates get? My impression, and what is often said, is that they don't: they're asked for a higher grade than you might expect. In which case, they're getting in almost in spite of the IB, not because.

Our local top-line independent boys' school took the decision some years ago, and everyone starting in Year 12 now will do the IB (they would have been told this on entry or shortly afterwards: long planning horizon). It will be interesting to see what happens to the results and the admissions story, but parents don't seem to be as gung-ho as they were at the outset.

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't realised that it was the breadth of the IB that was counting against it for UK Universities. That is very interesting tokyo.

Ds is interested in Humanities and is taking English, History and French at the Higher level, which he based on the subjects he enjoyed most, but it sounds like it is the right combination and might make things easier than if he was looking at Science or Engineering.

I agree Bonsoir about keeping up with Maths and your mother tongie language until 18 and that is one of the things we think is so attractive about the IB. He is certainly not averse to the idea of going to University abroad so the IB would stand him in good stead there.

Thanks for that mummytime, I have had a look at the ACS website and will contact them I think.

"He is certainly not averse to the idea of going to University abroad so the IB would stand him in good stead there."

Absolutely. Everything I've hypothesised (and it is only hypothesis) about the issues in the UK goes in reverse abroad, where the narrow specialisation of the A Levels may be a problem. But then, the degrees often take longer, partly for the same reason.

Do look at the Netherlands, I've heard some very good things about studying there (and its usually in English). I'm wondering if we ought to encourage my DS to go there.

tokyonambu - I think you are overstating problems of equivalency - it is really quite easy to get into British universities with qualifications other than A-levels! There is widespread knowledge and understanding of alternative qualifications.

And the IB is not necessarily currency "abroad". In France it is exceedingly difficult to get anyone to accept the IB - the IB is much less convertible currency in France than in the UK.

"it is really quite easy to get into British universities with qualifications other than A-levels!"

I'd be interested to see some research. Anecdote, based on talking to a few admissions tutors I know socially, is that a lot of non-A Level admission is seen as part of "widening access" and the like, rather than admissions of 18 year olds straight from high-performing schools. Which may change the dynamic.

As someone who did it myself, as did all my classmates and many hundreds of pupils at the school I went to, and who, like all the others I knew, naturally gravitated towards the EU students (and our children are now at the same stage) - it really isn't such a big deal! Take a look at any UK university website - you'll get a list of the EU school leaving diplomas they accept and an idea of offers.

UK universities have been accepting EU school leaving diplomas for decades with no difficulty.

DS1 did the IB and when it came to DS2 choosing, DS1 was shouting "Do A levels" from the rooftops. According to him, those doing the IB had to work much harder than those doing A levels, simply based on the amount of subjects they were doing. This was just his observation of course. The following are my musings and observations - I'm not pro/anti one or the other.

People talk about leaving your options open by taking the IB but in reality you can only study something at university that you have done at higher level and not standard level so what does doing these standard levels achieve with regard to entrance to university (what they achieve on another level is obviously different)?

Some of the higher level subjects are more difficult than A level. Higher French for example is certainly more difficult than A level French. I'm a maths tutor and I would also say that higher maths is more difficult than A level as there are elements of further maths in there.

There is a UCAS IB tariff here but it doesn't seem to be applied very much at any point in the university scale. At the lower end, to be fair, they are unable to use the tariff because a course which requires 160 points will have to ask for 24 IB points as this is the minimum pass mark but this, according to UCAS is 260 points. Mid-range, 34 points equates to four As but this comes, for example, from the University of Kent website for admission to their maths course:

Offer levels

A/AS level 300 points (3.5 A level equivalents) inc BB at A level, IB Diploma 33 points inc 5 in HL Mathematics or IB Diploma with 15 points at Higher inc 5 in HL Mathematics, except for Mathematics inc a Foundation Year (G108) (individual consideration).

So basically they are asking for three Bs at A level (two Bs/300 points) whereas 33 points equates to 3 As and a B.

At the top end, 45 points (amazing if you get this - the highest in DS1's year was 44 and that was already considered amazing) equates to 3 As and 3 Bs (or 6 As). To study French at Cambridge you need (in theory) AAA, so 380 points. For the IB, This is what it says:

Typical offers are 39-42 points out of 45, including 7,7,6 or 7,7,7 in Higher Level subjects.

For a start getting three 7s or even 7, 7, 6 at higher level would be harder than getting A*AA, without the overall requirement to get 39 points which is, according to the tariff, worth 589 points (42 IB points = 654 UCAS points).

I thought that Cambridge would be one university where they would like the IB, given that it distinguishes more between top candidates but they are asking for exceptionally high grades. I realise that those going there with A levels are likely to have higher grades than they are asking for, but I am only looking at what they require as a minimum according to their website.

I think I would advise the following. If your ds has a idea of what he would like to study, do a bit of research with the universities offering that course. Draw up a table of the IB versus A level requirements, including whether they ask for specific points in higher subjects (as they usually do). Then weigh up whether or not you think it is worth him keeping up the three standard subjects (from the point of view of getting into university) which in reality won't specifically help him get a place on a course.

Also take into consideration maybe the fact that with the IB there is the compulsory Theory of Knowledge element which whilst adding to your points also adds to the workload.

On the plus side, having to work for so many subjects will, I believe, make him more prepared for the amount of work he is likely to be expected to do at university.

Hope this helps a bit!

I don't quite understand why everyone should do maths until 18. Why would it be useful to an arts student to know how to do calculus?

As a maths tutor to the European Schools and the Belgian system, I can understand why you are saying that gerontius. Some of the non-mathematical students really struggle with the maths element of their course. With them doing so many subjects this might not affect their overall score a huge amount but maybe enough not to get a place at their desired university. Also, it requires a lot of work and effort for a subject that is not going to used at university.

Me too onimolap but then I'm pretty old!

I talked with an admissions tutor from Bath University recently. She is very pro IB because of the independent learning style it promotes which is the kind of skill they will need for University.

I like the IB very much but I like A Levels too, especially for children with clear specialisms. I have taught both in the past.

I thought the grade comparisons with A Levels had been changed recently because the highest points at IB, while extremely good, are considered over valued when given an equivalence to 6 As. Am I wrong about this?

I think the person who said students are more likely to get an offer with IB but less likely to win admission has a good point. One explanation for this is that when a tutor is unsure about whether to make an offer to an A Level student but the student is likely to get high A Level grades (as many hard working students do who are not necessarily quite what the tutor is looking for), the tutor is quite likely to reject that candidate as A Levels have not been distinguishing in sufficient detail at the top of the spectrum.

If that same student is doing IB, the tutor can take a punt and make an offer, but based on rather high IB points, on the basis that despite the tutor's uncertainty, if the student achieves those high marks, he/she will manage the course well. This would lead to a higher proportion of students getting a 'benefit of the doubt' offer, but will also lead to a higher proportion of rejections.

Amissions tutors will have their own ideas and biases, as they do not make a homogeneous group but so long as a child copes with the work in the chosen curriculum, I currently see no clear evidence, apart from the anecdotal, that studying one or the other prejudices or enhances a student's chances, but you cannot know an individual admissions tutor's thoughts or preferences in advance.

Mummytime The emphasis on degrees taught in English is increasing further in The Netherlands so it might be worth a look.

Re degrees taught in English in the Netherlands, these are mainly Masters. There are some undergraduate courses though. Nuffic is a good site (here).

I would agree jem44 that the grade comparisons were over valued in the tariff but even so, universities are still not usually giving fair offers compared to A level offers.

I got the UCAS tariff from the UCAS website so I presume it is up-to-date.