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Guest post: “We need to look at the reasons for the decline in vaccination rates”

68 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 07/11/2019 11:01

The UK vaccination programme is very successful with high rates of vaccine uptake and as a result, low disease rates. In the UK vaccination is the norm, with the overwhelming majority of parents automatically having their children immunised. However, recently there has been a small decline in vaccine uptake of a few percentage points which has attracted a lot of attention in the media. One tabloid has even run a campaign: “Give the children their jabs”. The stories suggested this decline in uptake is due to the effects of mis-information about vaccines on social media, or parents’ ‘complacency’ about the seriousness of diseases like measles and lots of references to the rise of ‘anti-vaxxers’. One suggestion to improve rates, made by the Secretary of State for Health, is to make vaccination compulsory. At first glance, this seems sensible. Immunisation is a very safe and highly effective means of protecting our children against diseases that can be very serious, so making it compulsory seems the obvious quick fix to improve rates. But is this the best way?

First, we need to look at the reasons for the decline in rates. Contrary to some news headlines, most under-immunisation is not due to parents declining vaccines - in fact, the number of parents who do this is very small and there is no evidence to suggest there has been an increase recently. In fact, surveys, including one by Mumsnet, show that more UK parents than ever are confident in vaccination and consider it to be important for their children’s health. More practical reasons such as difficulties getting an appointment because of the conflicting pressures of busy family life and working schedules and forgetting that vaccines are due, particularly for pre-school children are more often the causes of under-immunisation. General practice, where most baby vaccines are given, has been under a lot of pressure lately with increasing workloads and fewer resources including a shortage of nurses. There has also been a decline in numbers of health visitors who provide families with advice and support in the early years including about vaccination. It is certainly true that some people may not think vaccines are so important any more as the diseases are now uncommon, but calling this ‘complacency’ is not helpful. If you have no experience of a disease, how can you be expected to know what it’s like? So wouldn’t it be better to improve all these things first and if they don’t work, then think about introducing more radical solutions?

What could mandation look like? Other countries have different ways of mandating, in some like the USA it’s a requirement for school entry, in Australia you don’t get certain benefit payments unless children are vaccinated and in some European countries, a fine is imposed. The evidence about whether this actually works to increase rates is not clear. If you are going to introduce such laws you have to make it easier for families to get vaccinated and also publicise it, otherwise it’s not fair and it might be these improvements that have the impact of increasing rates where that happens, not mandation itself.

We also have to think about the possible harms of such a measure. If we introduced a system where children had to be vaccinated before they could start school, one possible consequence would be that parents who did not want their children to be vaccinated would have to find alternative ways of educating them. This would disadvantage children in poorer families more than those of richer parents, who would have the resource to pay for quality alternative education. In some countries, <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02232-0&sa=D&ust=1573126764565000&usg=AFQjCNGNT0ZByOtQ9wYKGBP_pR3fO1ZAew" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">legal requirements have resulted in more vaccine resistance among parents already unsure about vaccination. Health professionals are an important source of advice for parents about vaccination, with many parents saying they trust them and their advice, but what would happen to these conversations if the starting point was that the child had to be vaccinated? Would requirements mean that healthcare providers were less willing to spend time discussing vaccination with them as it was no longer a choice? Finally, while a legal requirement may be appropriate and acceptable in some countries, we know little about the views of the UK public on this issue and it would be important to establish these first. In a Mumsnet survey, 77% reported they would support such legislation, but does this actually just reflect support for vaccination?

As vaccination protects the community as well as individuals, one important benefit of high vaccine rates is that people who cannot be immunised are protected by the immunity in the rest of the community. This includes young babies, people with health conditions and pregnant women. This, it is often argued, is why we need to introduce compulsory vaccination. While community immunity is extremely important, I would argue that to introduce compulsory vaccination would require considerable extra resources. This would be better spent improving our current systems and organisation to strengthen the things that we know work to improve uptake, rather than moving straight to legislation which could be harmful.

OP posts:
JenniR29 · 09/11/2019 09:27

Excellent as a fellow scientist I’m very happy to read and critique your research, please post links Flower

FlowerAndBloom · 09/11/2019 09:28

You may be waiting a bit we've only just started! What field do you work in Jenni? What are you currently working on?

JenniR29 · 09/11/2019 09:40

I’m not, I’m a pharmacist, as a healthcare professional I’ve been trained to administer vaccinations and my degree makes me an expert on medicines and their side effects. I also have a clinical diploma which extensively covered immunology and vaccines.

If you’ve only just started your research then surely you have no valid conclusion that would lead you to believe aluminium is an unsafe adjuvant and you certainly don’t have a basis to tell people on the internet that they shouldn’t vaccinate their children.

This review is pretty comprehensive though:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615573/

FlowerAndBloom · 09/11/2019 09:59

As a pharmacist I'm quite sure you fully understand vaccines and their side effects but I'm not looking at that here. I am not disputing your qualifications or whether you are well qualified enough to be able to critique what I'm doing. I'm not looking into safety of medicines, I believe they are safe.

And just for clarity I haven't said to anyone on the internet to not vaccinate their children nor have I disclosed whether or not I vaccinate my own children. Please please don't put words in my mouth. You must be careful here.

I haven't stated any research conclusions because I'm still at a metaanalysis stage. I'm quite certain you are unpublished yourself Jenni or you would know it takes years and how much work it is! However, I'm doing the work because I think there is work to be done based on my own knowledge and previous studies and experience.

Also, just for your own information, when we look at other people's research it's important to be aware of bias. You prob just googled that paper on the spot, I won't patronise you, but I actually know it well. The author works for Vaxine Pty (a biotech company making new vaccines and is a newish company) so it's not in his interests really to suggest otherwise and of course a myriad other reasons.

I really really don't want to be rude, gosh I don't even know how to put it...but in a nutshell we will leave the conversation here I think. Have a lovely day Smile

JenniR29 · 09/11/2019 10:22

And just for clarity I haven't said to anyone on the internet to not vaccinate their children nor have I disclosed whether or not I vaccinate my own children. Please please don't put words in my mouth. You must be careful here.

You heavily implied that because of their ‘inside knowledge’ that you know people who will not vaccinate and that this also forms the basis of your opinion. If you didn’t mean it then delete it.

StealthPolarBear · 09/11/2019 10:50

"
Seems like the NHS might want to address how they promote and schedule the actual delivery of immunisations before looking to make them 'compulsory' whatever that means."
That is exactly what the op is saying.

ReggaetonLente · 09/11/2019 11:22

Flower you knew exactly what you were doing, don't backtrack now someone's called you out on it.

Its like those crappy facebook posts people share-

'i helped a Muslim lady up the stairs and she whispered to me to avoid Paddington station on 23rd November, please share'

'My brother in law is a policeman and he's telling everyone in our family mot to go to the Trafford centre in December, spread the word'

Its playing on people's insecurities and worries using the appearance of expertise and insider knowledge. Both of which, surprise surprise, can never be proven.

JenniR29 · 09/11/2019 13:06

Classic deflection tactic too, I asked which company her ‘friend’ works for and how that would lead her and her colleagues to decide not to vaccinate their children. I got no answer.

Instead I got a long winded spiel about aluminium research (which seems to be the new anti-vaxx obsession since they removed the mercury and debunked that myth).

xJodiex · 09/11/2019 18:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StealthPolarBear · 09/11/2019 18:57

"
'i helped a Muslim lady up the stairs and she whispered to me to avoid Paddington station on 23rd November, please share'
"
I love those posts! I love my life around what random Muslims whisper

Screwtheclockchange · 09/11/2019 19:03

I definitely think that problems with access and administration play a big part. It's a complete mess in my local area:

  • I had to take two days off work for my DD's preschool vaccinations because, the first time, the surgery mistakenly allocated me an appointment when she was two days short of the minimum age for the jabs. I was told to come back the next week. That only works if you have a sympathetic employer.
  • Reminder letters get sent out months late or not at all, so parents have to be very on the ball.
  • Appointments are scarce.
  • There was a lot of enthusiasm for the flu nasal spray locally, yet the first clinic was virtually empty because receptionists at the surgery hadn't been given the right information. They were still telling parents to call back in another fortnight because stocks hadn't arrived yet. Maybe two or three of us managed to get appointments because we had a better source of information.

I'm sure some parents are still suspicious of vaccines but I also think that "hysterical mothers who don't understand science" is a very good fig leaf for the fact that the system is falling apart. No blame attached to individual NHS workers, obviously. It's not their bloody fault!

ChristmasArmadillo · 09/11/2019 19:04

In the interests of accuracy it is not mandatory to attend school in the US except in two states. Our county releases the percentage of vaccinated students per school each year and last year the highest was, I believe, below 90%.

ragged · 09/11/2019 19:14

I guess what confuses me is how Prof can say that refusal isn't why coverage is declining, when vaccination rates are falling for all the main diseases, which implies that timing of usual dose isn't relevant. What has changed about the schedule or access since 2010 to cause this?

Guest post: “We need to look at the reasons for the decline in vaccination rates”
Mammabear111 · 09/11/2019 19:48

Should be the parents choice and parents should have the right to decline them

WelshMammaofaSlovak · 09/11/2019 19:50

@FlowerAndBloom

I haven't stated any research conclusions because I'm still at a metaanalysis stage. I'm quite certain you are unpublished yourself Jenni or you would know it takes years and how much work it is! However, I'm doing the work because I think there is work to be done based on my own knowledge and previous studies and experience.

What an absolute crock and so typical of the bs woo woo peddled by anti-vaxxers. You can't use mercury anymore so now it's aluminium. I wonder what it'll be when they can't be proven because, let's face it, you are never ones to let either firm evidence (in the case of safety) or a total lack of evidence (in the case of danger) stand in your way. You started off by saying that you know someone who knows people but you can't say who they are or who they work for. Next you claimed to have conducted research but when pressed further it turns out that all you are doing is planning your research which is based only on ideas that you and the rest of the dangerously batshit anti-vaxxers believe to be true. Finally, you also claimed not to have told people not to vaccinate when that's exactly what you were implying. Why don't you bugger off with your dangerous crazy pseudoscience that puts my mum and my young daughter, who isn't yet old enough to have had all of her immunisations, and many of the SEN students I've ever taught at huge risk and when you've buggered off there you can bugger further off again to an island where you can't harm the rest of us.

PettsWoodParadise · 09/11/2019 21:53

I was so pleased DD got to have the HPV vaccination. I had to have treatment for pre-cancerous cells and it really isn’t something I’d want my daughter to experience.

I was sad to hear some girls in DD’s class didn’t have the vaccination. As it was delivered in school (state) it wasn’t about logistics, this was plain and simple parents refusing to allow the vaccination or in one case a girl refusing. Two were from Eastern European catholic families who told DD that the jab encouraged promiscuity so their parents wouldn’t let them have it, another girl whose parents spoke poor English that the vaccine would almost certainly make them ill. One girl claimed she was a vegan and the cultures were grown from egg yolk (is it???) so she couldn’t have the vaccine. So there doesn’t seem to be one single clear reason for objection in this small sample. Appreciate it is just a microcosm of an example but interesting nonetheless.

Surprise surprise not a single girl who did have the vaccine (two jabs one year apart) has become ill.

charactersonclothesaretrashy · 09/11/2019 22:02

The reason is laziness and parenta who just don't give a 💩

..... until their own dc get seriously ill and they are all 'but nobody told me how serious it can be.....'

StealthPolarBear · 09/11/2019 22:04

How do you know characters

charactersonclothesaretrashy · 09/11/2019 22:05

My dc are up to date with vaccines and also we paid privately for chicken pox vaccinations .

cdtaylornats · 09/11/2019 23:18

The only doctors I've met who don't vaccinate their kids are the ones who don't have any.

MissMatchedClaws · 09/11/2019 23:42

I think trust is at the centre of this. I had my children vaccinated. We went to our gp. I don’t remember it being particularly difficult to get an appointment and I knew and trusted the staff, without having to really think about it.

Last week I got a flu jab, privately,
At a local chemists. As I sat in a tiny room with a strange man, sleeve rolled up, I was genuinely surprised how I suddenly had all these thoughts of distrust and fear. It was astonishingly difficult to find that trust.

Mandatory jabs, varied providers, they don’t address that. Building trust is key.

JenniR29 · 10/11/2019 02:55

One girl claimed she was a vegan and the cultures were grown from egg yolk (is it???)

Some vaccines are (including flu and MMR) but the HPV vaccine is not.

Last week I got a flu jab, privately,
At a local chemists. As I sat in a tiny room with a strange man, sleeve rolled up, I was genuinely surprised how I suddenly had all these thoughts of distrust and fear. It was astonishingly difficult to find that trust.

It’s the same vaccine, administered the same way as your doctor/nurse would by a trained healthcare professional. There’s no reason for the mistrust.

Two were from Eastern European catholic families who told DD that the jab encouraged promiscuity so their parents wouldn’t let them have it, another girl whose parents spoke poor English that the vaccine would almost certainly make them ill

These cultural/religious perceptions are pretty common and I think education is key to addressing this.

echt · 10/11/2019 06:23

Not TRFT but the reason is fucking thick people.

ahhgoongoongoonhaveacupoftea · 10/11/2019 08:02

Parents who do not vaccinate seem to think that because the rest of us do actually vaccinate our dc their own unprotected children are safe..... that is until their child becomes seriously ill during an epidemic and they are suddenly full of regret and tears 🙄 meanwhile our vaccinated children are fine.

ahhgoongoongoonhaveacupoftea · 10/11/2019 08:03

I do hope the government bring in a 'no vaccinations- no child benefit or state school' rules.

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