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Guest post: The 'poshness test': "we can't just blame employers - the divide starts much earlier"

65 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 19/06/2015 10:07

If you were in charge of recruitment at a law or accountancy firm, who would be your job candidate of choice? A slightly diffident applicant with a regional accent, a clutch of dodgy A-levels from an inner-city comprehensive, and a first-class degree obtained as a mature student at a former polytechnic? Or an urbane ex-public school boy with an air of easy assurance and a solid 2:1 from a Russell Group university?

New research by the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission reveals that working-class applicants struggle to gain access to the best jobs. In some solicitors' firms, trainees are five times more likely than the population as a whole to have attended a fee-paying school. The Commission concludes that firms are applying a 'poshness test', excluding bright young people simply because they come from the wrong side of the tracks.

At this point, I'll come clean: I'm one of the privately educated elite to whom the report refers. At my fee-paying girls' school in Manchester, we had elocution lessons – misleadingly timetabled as 'speech and drama' – the sole purpose of which was to eliminate our flat northern vowels. But there are degrees of poshness, and I was always aware that my parents – a teacher and a receptionist – didn't move in quite the right circles.

These days, parents like mine can't afford to pay for their children's education. Research published by the Institute of Fiscal Studies in 2010 revealed that school fees had risen at nearly three times the rate of household income since 1992. Average day-school fees now stand at more than £12,000 a year, well out of the reach of the average teacher, let alone a cleaner or call-centre worker. Private education, it seems, is increasingly the preserve of the very rich.

When I started university, I mixed with students from schools that were even posher than mine. You could spot the public-school brigade easily - they were immediately on first-name terms with professors, chatting unselfconsciously at sherry receptions about gap years in Nepal and summer placements in their fathers' firms. At the age of nineteen or twenty they were already plotting out their career paths, joining clubs and committees and effortlessly forming the connections that would guarantee success in their professional lives.

After graduation I joined a national law firm, where for every clever solicitor from a state school, there were ten affable but academically less stellar public-school types. Pitted against these people at interview, the working-class candidate doesn't stand a chance. From the moment he walks into the room, he sends out a thousand tiny signals that reveal his background.

The truth is that it feels safer and less threatening for privately educated interviewers to recruit in their own image. That's why so many law firms are full of clubbable chaps and chapesses who obtain partnership primarily on the basis of their ability to schmooze clients. A group of them once poured scorn on my suggestion that our firm should seek out and offer assistance to socially disadvantaged job candidates - they were against positive discrimination, but they failed to recognise that they had benefited from a far more subtle and insidious form of it over the years.

Still, it seems unfair just to blame employers - in truth, the divide opens up decades before that first job interview. Middle-class parents confer all sorts of benefits on their children, simply by virtue of their money and social capital. Children from lower socio-economic backgrounds tend to have poorer language skills when they start school, whereas middle-class children, who grow up listening to dinner party conversations and Radio 4, seem to absorb their parents' high expectations.

To compensate for social disadvantage, it's clear that intervention is needed at an early stage. How unfortunate that the Sure Start programme, with its emphasis on quality childcare and early education, has been undermined by funding cuts, with many centres forced to close down. Another progressive initiative is the pupil premium – school funding targeted at children from disadvantaged backgrounds – but its future is uncertain under a government that has already announced a real-terms cut in the education budget.

There are other, more radical solutions. I don't suggest that it would be practicable to dismantle the private education system but I do think reform is possible, given the political will. Changes that could go some way towards redressing the balance include removing private schools' charitable tax status; obliging them to offer a certain number of well-publicised bursaries; or imposing a quota system so that the proportion of privately educated students at the Russell Group universities bears a closer relationship to the seven per cent of pupils in the general population who attend fee-paying schools.

Another means of redress is discrimination law. The Equality Act already rules out recruitment decisions based on a candidate's sex, race or disability; why not make it unlawful for employers to discriminate on grounds of socio-economic disadvantage? While none of these suggestions is uncontroversial, I believe they deserve to be explored.

Meanwhile, those of us who have benefited from a private schooling, and who now act as gatekeepers to the best jobs, need to ask ourselves some difficult questions. Has our privileged education opened doors that would have remained firmly closed if we'd attended the local comprehensive? Do our recruitment decisions reveal an unconscious bias towards those who look, sound and act like us? And are the qualities we value in a job applicant – such as eloquence, confidence and polish – simply a convenient shorthand for posh?

OP posts:
MoreBeta · 19/06/2015 15:03

Would MNHQ like to explain the link between the Guardian article here and this blog post which uses exactly the same photograph?

There is a metropolitan elite in this country that includes people from left and right based in London. It is not about poshness. It is about the massive and increasing wealth and opportunity gap that is opening up in a deeply divided society that stifles opportunity and social mobility.

Fine for it to be debated on MN but why is it being presented here in a way that has a clear political narrative that is aimed at Tory 'poshboys'. Labour always want to make it about class war but nobody believes it any more. The Labour leadership are as detached from reality as anybody else in the London metropolitan bubble.

Would anyone like to examine the CV of Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper the two leading candidates for Labour Leadership? Oxbridge educated and then up through the London based Labour party research/policy unit, Spad, safe seat route. Does a working class teenager in a rough comprehensive school in a Northern town and then into a low paid job stand a chance of making it through that system? I think not. Its why Labour has lost its grip on power because its elite doesn't represent its voters.

That is the real issue that underlies this article. It is not about poshness.

Yamahaha · 19/06/2015 15:21

Following vixsatis' post, I would also add that the music industry and acting profession in Britain are also completely dominated by privately educated people.

Morebeta, I agree the Labour leadership have become completely an adjunct to the membership. I think this began with Blair, and the rise of career politicians. Basically those not from traditional umc families joined labour to fulfill their career ambitions as Conservatives wouldn't have promoted them quickly enough. Look at the ages of the shadow cabinet currently compared with that 30 or 40 years ago.

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 19/06/2015 15:32

I don't think that this is particularly applicable in Scotland.

MoreBeta · 19/06/2015 15:36

Bristol Betty - I was in the same college at Oxford as David Milliband and later Ed Milliband. I was farmers son came from a provincial boarding school no one has ever heard of. My wife came from a two-up two down in a northern city, attended a girls grammar school and lived next to a miner.

The Miliband brothers attended a comprehensive school and lived in central London. Their tutor in college was Professor Andrew Glyn a well known marxist economist. He was the son of John Glyn, the 6th Baron Wolverton, of the Williams & Glyn's Bank banking dynasty and educated at Eton and Oxford.

I and my wife both went to work in the City by dint of hard effort not poshness while David and Ed Milliband left university then to Harvard and as we know their careers from then on in the Labour party.

I have absolutely nothing against David and Ed Milliband ad knew David quite well and often argued with him about politics and especially the miners strike but liked him none the less.

Who was posh? Who was working class? Who should have been excluded on the basis of socio economic background?

Jux · 19/06/2015 15:47

There is something in it. I have a distant relative (I'm not posh enough to be noticed by that branch, really) who left his very famous public school with no qualifications whatsoever, not a GCSE, not an A level, and stepped straight into the sort of job that most of us couldn't even dream of. Within a few years he was head of European sales, or something, and earning over 250K pa. Nowadays, 20 years on, heaven knows what he's up to. All because some chum of his felt sorry for him and asked his dad to give him a job. And because he learnt how to schmooze (he is charming and polite, and very lovely, but he learnt how to be like that at school).

timelyreminder · 19/06/2015 15:50

Middle-class parents confer all sorts of benefits on their children, simply by virtue of their money and social capital.

This is too much of a generalisation. Class and money are not the same thing. Not all middle class parents have money, and vice versa. And not all middle class people have "social capital" or are interested in competitively using their "class" to get ahead.

I think re-introducing state grammars would be good, so that selection is by ability, not one's parents' wealth.

Preciousbane · 19/06/2015 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CatOfTheGreenGlades · 19/06/2015 18:21

I think that's a great point about Ed Miliband. I think the labour party ideally should endeavour to represent normal people and have MPs who have normal backgrounds, but I can see many reasons why that doesn't always happen. But what really bugs me about Labour (even though I am a Labour voter including in 2015) is that they keep on trying to fake it. David Cameron didn't even bother. We all know he's a privately educated toff with friends in high places who doesn't give a crap about the poor. Yet he got a massive thumbs-up! I think what the electorate hate most is that silly pretense.

Stillwishihadabs · 19/06/2015 19:03

I am ROTFL at the idea that public school pupils work harder than "day pupils" . I am state educated with AAB at A level, whilst doing that I had several pt jobs from 14 (sweeping up in a hair dressers,working in a dry cleaners,a bakery,babysitting loads and finally doing 7-2 in a nursing home on a Saturday morning before doing a drama club 3-6 in my A-level year) I am the oldest of 3 siblings and was expected to cook one night a week, wash up and put the youngest to bed on other nights. I also knew how to use a washing machine and a hoover. I don't think this untypical of state educated teens tbh.

My dh went to public school he was cooked for, he never had to clear away a meal. He didn't work, his laundry was done as if by magic......who do you think has a better work ethic ?

Busydad2011 · 19/06/2015 20:36

Interesting idea to penalise private schools by removing Charitable status. I assume if you did that you would also approve of them cutting their bursaries and any support they give to State schools and pupils? Surely if we want to improve education for all then we should get the brightest students into good schools regardless of school status or pupil background. Confidence comes with achievement generally. The danger of some of the comments above is that they do not suggest improving things for State pupils by making them better but somehow penalising private/independent pupils. If fees are too high for teachers or other professional occupations then how about solutions that would make private school more affordable? Political suicide of course in our society of envy but tax breaks for parents, state sponsorship of bright pupils with parents below a certain income, even god forbid, State schools where the more cerebral could attend together! We do not expect everybody to live in identical houses or drive identical cars but for some reason apply this logic for schooling. Please excuse the ramble.

AuldAlliance · 19/06/2015 21:53

I may be wrong, as I am not totally au fait with all the schools mentioned on the list referring to Guardian journalists, but it also strikes me that every single one was educated in England, apart from a few who may have been to school abroad before attending university in England.
No one from other parts of the UK.

Yamahaha · 19/06/2015 21:53

Oh, the removal of charitable status is a nonsense, regularly trotted out by people that seem to have little idea what the effect would be. Costed out, it would add about 4% to fees- well most annual increases are around that, so hardly going to be a deal-breaker for most people paying fees.

Making independent schools more affordable for people on ordinary incomes is a tacit acknowledgement that 93% of children in England are educated in schools that are not good enough; that fee-paying schools must be better otherwise why would want to widen availability of participation?

Of course, in reality, there are many, many rather good maintained schools, and some pretty mediocre independent schools out there. The problem is universal access. There are still far too many children that do not have access to excellent schools of any type. I just do not see how the maintained sector can hope to provide anything approaching the top end of things when they will never have funding to the tune of £30k+ p.a. per pupil coming in.

Yamahaha · 19/06/2015 21:54

Auld- thats because the Scottish journalists have moved into politics... Wink

HMF1 · 19/06/2015 22:35

Fees would rise by more than 4% if private schools lost their charitable status & were obliged to charge VAT on the services they provide. I don't think they should retain it they are essentially businesses providing educational services. However the real issue I think is that state schools are not good at aspiration they leave children to get on with it they don't cajole or encourage the same way the private sector does, they simply don't have the resources. It's OK for those who have parents who can fill that gap but for those with parents who can't or won't the differences are there from the beginning.

Yamahaha · 19/06/2015 22:45

Surely schools are exempt supply for education? i.e. zero rated.
Lots of fee-paying schools have a proportion of pupils that pay no fees on an income-linked bursary? ISC says 1/3rd of all pupils in independent sector have assistance of some sort. (though obviously lots of these will be 10% off or whatever).

roamer2 · 19/06/2015 22:48

It appears from the way that this is presented that anyone who has not been to private school and/or possibly grammar school is now 'working class'???

Corygal · 19/06/2015 22:54

Frank Field's report on The Early Years is the game-changing doc that highlighted the class differences children live with today that all-too reliably predict their adult lives.

I was looking for hope. I read the whole phone-directory block of it in the hope of finding solutions to the myriad injustices he laid out and came to the only possible conclusion.

There ain't much, as he sees it. All the big inequality problems children face, except mother's poor mental health, start before the child is conceived. It really is the parents, whether their lifestyle is based on private income or welfare, that make the difference. Even then, the parents are hardly responsible for all that themselves.

Your life chances are predicated before you're conceived, to be honest.

CitrineRaindropPhoenix · 20/06/2015 00:05

Still wish. I was privately educated. I worked 3 nights per week in sainbsurys from my 16th birthday onwards. My db was in hospital 60 miles away so I was responsible for looking after younger siblings from age 14 while my parents did hospital duty.

Private education doesn't mean people don't have difficult situations otherwise even if that didn't apply to your dh.

Stillwishihadabs · 20/06/2015 09:12

I did say public not private. I think the earlier poster was suggesting going home every night was the sift option.

mellicauli · 20/06/2015 09:42

I think people are losing sight of the fact that accountancy and law firms are service companies. The most important thing isn't to do the lawyering or to do the accounts/consultancy, anyone with a brain can do that.

The thing they really need is professionals who can maintain strong relationships with existing clients and to win new clients. It is easier to do this if you are a person like your client and if you have a wide circle of well connected friends.

So personally I think you need to start by changing the nature of the CEO and the other wealth creators before you can start changing the face of professional services.

(I say this as a non-professional in the legal world, without the benefit of private school education, - explaining, not justifying!)

Destinysdaughter · 20/06/2015 09:45

I really like this comic strip about privilege, think it sums it up very well.

thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

Bonsoir · 20/06/2015 14:01

mellicauli - yes. Relationships and networking are not a heinous crime or some sort of conspiracy to keep others out and it is pie in the sky to suggest that outlawing them will create opportunities for those on the outside. On the contrary: the way to succeed is by joining the networks and creating and maintaining the relationships, and that is the message to put across.

timelyreminder · 20/06/2015 16:01

Surely if we want to improve education for all then we should get the brightest students into good schools regardless of school status or pupil background.

That would mean selection by ability only. Otherwise money will still guarantee a school place for some. Charity status for private schools only helps a tiny proportion of the most intelligent.

Dapplegrey · 20/06/2015 16:22

"And the best type of education surely involves teaching children to mix happily with people from different backgrounds, something that few private schools can achieve."
OP how do you know this exactly? What proof do you have of this? Another poster has put up a list of Guardian journalists who were privately educated. Do you think they consider they cannot mix happily with people from different backgrounds?
Getting along with people is, imho, more to do with personality than where you went to school.

silveracorn · 20/06/2015 17:53

I worked for a while in recruitment for an international company. Almost all the people who made an immediate positive impact at interview were Oxbridge. They really stood out for a single reason: enthusiasm. They were enthusiastic about attending the interview, about the previous work they had done and their university courses, about their plans for life. They tackled proposed problems with enthusiasm.

In comparison other candidates were notably negative. They complained about parking problems, traffic, previous employers; they struggled with problem solving issues and were hostile or startled and lacking in confidence not charming when challenged on something they'd said.

If you could teach that glossy mindset in state schools: nothing is too much effort, let's look at solutions not dwell on problems, all difficult times in my life have been fabulous learning challenges, and so on, I wonder how much impact it would have on equalling out the job market. It's a learned/learnable skill.

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