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Guest post: "What happens to our ambition when we become mothers?"

70 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/05/2015 13:47

When I was pregnant with my first child, I worked in an all-woman team. My boss was a successful and well-respected mother of three, who ran her department all day (and often all night) with scrupulous efficiency and would insist on driving me to the train station in her shiny smart car. The nursery rhyme tapes and banana skins she had to sweep off the passenger seat before I got in were only apparent once the door was opened.

Alongside generic Harassed Working Mumâ„¢, we seem to have two opposing caricatures for women in the workplace after they have had a baby. The first suggests we instantly lose all the skills and hunger we previously had and turn into flaky liabilities, focused exclusively on the needs of our offspring at the expense of our employer. The second is that of heartless career overdrive, abandoning our children in pursuit of world domination and putting the bitch into ambition.

Neither reflects any of the women I've known in a professional or personal capacity; or reflects the reality that for most of us (men and women) work is primarily about paying the bills. Still, the stereotypes persist, and lazy assumptions are damaging for employers and staff alike as talent is wasted and opportunities missed.

However, all research shows that for women as a group, things do change dramatically when we become mothers: we tend to work fewer hours, we work in lower status jobs and we are paid less, not just compared to our male peers, but compared to the earlier versions of ourselves. Are these changes the inevitable result of a natural shift in our priorities and commitments, or proof that the system is broken?

I was chatting last week with a friend who has, in my mind, attained the Holy Grail of working motherhood. She works part-time and from home in a career she loves, and still has the flexibility to shift an assignment on occasion in order to make it to her daughters’ school plays. If I was ever to define "having it all", hers is the picture I would draw.

Despite this, she told me that salaries in her firm had started to lag behind the average in the sector. A colleague wanted to ask management for a raise and had already started scoping out jobs elsewhere. My friend, who knows that her skills and experience are hugely in demand by competitors, intends to live with the gap. For her, the flexibility she has developed outweighs the prospect of an immediate pay-rise or promotion.

Is my friend living proof, then, that women do sideline themselves into the so-called "mommy track"? Does her situation show that we hand over our ambition in return for our first comfy pair of maternity office trousers? Or is it evidence of a more complex – yet hopefully more positive – reality?

Clearly, it's not as simple as women losing their ambition once they become mothers. Having children is a huge event in a woman's life, but I don't think it fundamentally changes who she is – especially if she has invested a huge amount of time and effort into reaching a certain point in her career. What I do think sometimes changes, however, is the subject of her ambition.

I'm not talking about an immediate sublimation or transfer of all her hopes and dreams onto her children – I read articles about Alpha Mummies who pour all their efforts into ensuring that their children leapfrog over every possible target, but I have yet to meet one in real life. Career success itself does not become less important. Instead, ambition has to jostle alongside other demands and desires, which our society still deems to be the particular preserve of women.

I struggled with this when I decided to leave work. I was plagued with fear that by walking away, I was betraying women who never had my chances, and worse, tainting those who came after me with guilt by association. I was making a reasoned choice based on my family's circumstances - but was I unwittingly 'giving in' to societal norms? Despite knowing it was nonsense, I was casting working women as a homogeneous group, a 'side' that I was letting down.

We need to remember that the decisions individual women make should not be taken as representative of mothers in general. The mother with a new-ish baby may want to reduce her hours in order to spend more time with him, the mother with school-age children may judiciously trade a measure of "fulfilment" (whatever that means) for flexibility in order to make family life run more smoothly. It would have made my decision much less painful to acknowledge - and to hear acknowledged from others - that a particular course of action reflects a specific set of circumstances, and not a more general attitude.

Sometimes, perhaps, the wish to do the best job possible at the time wins out over the wish to have the best job possible – and perhaps we need to think more clearly about who wins or loses as a result. In a difficult economic climate, as employers push for greater productivity and commitment, it is more important than ever to keep demonstrating that a valuable contribution doesn't necessarily depend on being the first one in and the last one to leave, or contributing to the largest number of group emails. You can still do a fantastic job even when your car is a mess. Just ask my old boss.

If you're looking a job that fits with your family life, visit Mumsnet Jobs here.

OP posts:
pearpotter · 28/05/2015 02:34

My only ambition was and is to be reasonably content in life. Work is only one element of that.

mumto3alexa · 28/05/2015 06:33

Sorry just bad wording bagsy. I have never had the role of cooking, ironing or any of what mn calls wifework (even pre childrem as been married years). He cooks me and the children all meals from scratch and does look after us all properly so I do see him as doing it for me to as he does a lot for me as well as the children.

Dh did all baby care from birth whilst I was at work full time, as I returned to work inmediately so I do no school runs, no weighing checks, health visitor, doctor appointments or anything like that. The health visitor didn't meet me until a month in and I only met her once.

I suppose we are pretty rare, but I don't think the children notice or care.

mumto3alexa · 28/05/2015 06:35

And no it would never ever be my role the day will never come where anyone sees me staying at home and running a house. I would be clueless!

DougalTheCheshireCat · 28/05/2015 10:02

Ok so let's talk instinct. I hear that some women don't feel the call / instinct to be with their children.

But what about those of use that do? I am professionally ambitious. I am still. However for me there is a tension between the kind of parent I need to be and that ambition, especially when they are young. I have a real live situation where I could apply for a great career move job right now. But I haven't and probably wont because my current job offers me brilliant flexibility and juggling to both work and be around for my pre-school children. The great move is much less likely to, and these years when my children are young will not come again.

I can foresee a time when I would go all out to get a job like this, when my kids are a bit older. What worries me is whether, after a few years where I've prioritised something else, I'd still be a top choice for that kind of job. We'll see.

Are we really saying that women or men can only be highly successful in their careers if they don't feel (or ignore, as I think many men do) the call to be around for their children, especially when they are young?

Isn't that a warped and narrow definition of what is required to be successful? Most of us will work for close to 50 years. It is very possible for any of us to take a few years out of that, or focus on something else for a few years (could be children, could be something else) and then come back, maybe, probably with renewed energy and perspective.

That, as a society we only reward and choose our leaders from a subset of people that have a very narrow focus in their lives is a bad thing, and a weakness.

How do we change this?

PomeralLights · 28/05/2015 10:41

This all works so well for the bosses doesn't it? Have all us handwringing, written off as just SAH / part time etc, when in fact loads of women want to work and it seems are willing to bust their ass for lower pay to prove their ambition and prove that they're not like 'all the others' (my arse). The term divide and conquer springs to mind. Why oh why are women being encouraged to sit around judging ourselves and each other when we are not the problem (WOH, SAH or not).

MartaAy · 28/05/2015 17:07

When i was pregnant, I worked until last day. Friday I leave the job, on Saturday went to give birth. But after Labor I forgot everything not concerning to my son. I even was afraid that these my limited world view will stay with me forever...

sleeplessbunny · 28/05/2015 19:34

yy PomeralLights

Patch36 · 29/05/2015 08:47

I'm really glad I've read these posts! For as long as I can remember, I have been a go getting career monster!! My first child who I had when i was 25, missed out a lot due to what I can only think was down to my head strong work ethic and ignorance towards how she may have felt when I wasn't able to attend harvest festival assembly or Mother's Day assembly!
I have recently had my second daughter (10 years on from my first) and at the height of my career, i have realised that my one drive to forward myself professionally was nothing but selfish!
My now 11 year old, told me recently that she would have loved to have had me more at home rather than spending hours in crèche, then school clubs and me pushing her through club after club, just so I could maximise not our families potential, but really what is only my own!
Yes, my first daughter has been fortunate enough to have had those expensive holidays, is now fortunate to live in a beautiful house! But the beautiful house, is not a home when no one barely lives in it and our holidays wasn't really holidays when my work mobile was switched on and answered regularly!
For all those mothers who are thinking that this lifestyle of placing great importance on career building to show your little ones that they have a mother to be proud of and one who they should look up to is a notion that is not all that's it's cracked up to be! It's a lesson I've learnt.
Children do not care about material things really, what they want is a mother who is there for them and not sacrificing their life for work.
So this time round, my second child will get this opportunity and for this, I am going part time. I have taken a backwards step in my career and this has been a huge decision for me. But having reflected on the last 10 years, there is no way that working myself stupid and having a children at the same time has greatly benefited either parties! Children are only young once and I can never replace that lost time for what I once thought was the 'right' thing to do! And I've asked myself this question, Will my 10 year old follow in my footsteps when she has children? Has my concept of teaching her that strong women have good careers filtered through to her? I think not!!

Duckdeamon · 29/05/2015 10:29

But patch, it isn't just about mothers being present, what about your partner's responsibilities and presence?

HoldenCaulfield80 · 29/05/2015 10:32

This was a really interesting read. I'm returning to work after 8 months mat leave and I definitively feel different about the job I'm going back to. I love it and I wouldn't want to stop work but it's now become a smaller facet of who I am. But I think this is natural - when something as big as motherhood comes into your life, the other thing have to condense slightly to 'make room'.

I'd still like - and will have the opportunity - to get promotion and although I'll be sad to leave DD on Monday morning, I know I'm doing the right thing for all of us.

motherinferior · 29/05/2015 18:53

Patch, I can assure you that I really wish my mother had furthered her career rather than putting it on the back-burner and being miserable and unfulfilled.

YonicScrewdriver · 30/05/2015 06:02

Yy mother inferior

Patch, is your DD's dad also cutting back?

Oly4 · 30/05/2015 17:19

I didn't appreciate my stay at home mother one bit!

funnyperson · 31/05/2015 08:48

Our local male GP is retiring leaving 3 female partners. At the patient partnership group the male chair requested that the practice hire a male replacement. The manager didnt rebut this, on the contrary said there had been 3 male applicants. I said they ought to hire the best person for the job and was shouted down by the male members of the PPG and when I said it was open to the practice to hire 2 part time job sharers of any sex the manager looked at me as if I came from Mars. I felt like going out and putting up a poster saying 'females need not apply' . I think the patriarchal society of work is terrible as 50% of medical students are female, and more intelligent females are doing useful degrees and postgrad training in other fields too. it is really important that the world of work changes the attitude to promotion for women and ensures that women earn on a par to men so as to be able to pay for housekeeping and childcare.
I am surprised at the low salaries offered by employers on the mumsnet site.

funnyperson · 31/05/2015 08:53

That said I do know many women who reach the top of their field =presidents of Royal Colleges for example, and they do have children, and some of them have children with severe disabilties and some of them have husbands who are in wheelchairs or on dialysis etc and they do really well because they are very well organised and have a great deal of courage and don't settle for second best in their work or at home.

lljkk · 31/05/2015 09:17

Why compare salaries as barometers of ambition or achievement? If so, why not include the fact that PT working females make much better money (per hour) than PT working males?

In my work area you have to follow a certain path with duties I strongly dislike in order to become senior. So I made my choice long before I had kids to hit a lower ceiling & stop because I don't like those senior duties. I know men (childfree or not) who have decided to stop at that ceiling, too.

funnyperson · 31/05/2015 12:03

Do PT females make better money than PT males?
I thought that pay parity for the same work is yet to be achieved

lljkk · 31/05/2015 14:44

Statistics, damn lies, and all that. Maybe the truth is very complicated.

Scroll down in this report to Figure 9 on PT workers, the comment is " In fact, the gap is negative for the 22-29 and 30-39 age groups, meaning that women earn on average more than men. ??Thereafter, there is a relatively large positive gap. This is likely to be connected with the fact that many women have children and take time out of the labour market. "

Or maybe that's proof that our ambition gets expelled with the placentas. I was never ambitious, so impossible for me to say.

madwomanbackintheattic · 02/06/2015 01:41

Patch, did your daughter also express those thoughts to her father? That she wished he had been able to attend harvest festivals and spend more time with her?

Otherwise, I'm afraid your dd1 is just expressing sour grapes that her sibling is getting more attention, and you are the one providing it. She's just too old to enact the usual babying routine and demand attention in less sophisticated ways.

If that's not it, it's really sad that your dd1, even with a strong female role model, has swallowed the 'mum should stay at home while dad works' agenda.

Ultimately, at the height of your career there is little left to achieve, so you might as well try being a sahm for a change - there's a lot to be said for choosing to leave at the height, rather than giving it up while you are stuffed full of ambition and wanting to prove yourself to be the equal of everyone, men included, babies or no babies.

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