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Guest post: "What happens to our ambition when we become mothers?"

70 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/05/2015 13:47

When I was pregnant with my first child, I worked in an all-woman team. My boss was a successful and well-respected mother of three, who ran her department all day (and often all night) with scrupulous efficiency and would insist on driving me to the train station in her shiny smart car. The nursery rhyme tapes and banana skins she had to sweep off the passenger seat before I got in were only apparent once the door was opened.

Alongside generic Harassed Working Mumâ„¢, we seem to have two opposing caricatures for women in the workplace after they have had a baby. The first suggests we instantly lose all the skills and hunger we previously had and turn into flaky liabilities, focused exclusively on the needs of our offspring at the expense of our employer. The second is that of heartless career overdrive, abandoning our children in pursuit of world domination and putting the bitch into ambition.

Neither reflects any of the women I've known in a professional or personal capacity; or reflects the reality that for most of us (men and women) work is primarily about paying the bills. Still, the stereotypes persist, and lazy assumptions are damaging for employers and staff alike as talent is wasted and opportunities missed.

However, all research shows that for women as a group, things do change dramatically when we become mothers: we tend to work fewer hours, we work in lower status jobs and we are paid less, not just compared to our male peers, but compared to the earlier versions of ourselves. Are these changes the inevitable result of a natural shift in our priorities and commitments, or proof that the system is broken?

I was chatting last week with a friend who has, in my mind, attained the Holy Grail of working motherhood. She works part-time and from home in a career she loves, and still has the flexibility to shift an assignment on occasion in order to make it to her daughters’ school plays. If I was ever to define "having it all", hers is the picture I would draw.

Despite this, she told me that salaries in her firm had started to lag behind the average in the sector. A colleague wanted to ask management for a raise and had already started scoping out jobs elsewhere. My friend, who knows that her skills and experience are hugely in demand by competitors, intends to live with the gap. For her, the flexibility she has developed outweighs the prospect of an immediate pay-rise or promotion.

Is my friend living proof, then, that women do sideline themselves into the so-called "mommy track"? Does her situation show that we hand over our ambition in return for our first comfy pair of maternity office trousers? Or is it evidence of a more complex – yet hopefully more positive – reality?

Clearly, it's not as simple as women losing their ambition once they become mothers. Having children is a huge event in a woman's life, but I don't think it fundamentally changes who she is – especially if she has invested a huge amount of time and effort into reaching a certain point in her career. What I do think sometimes changes, however, is the subject of her ambition.

I'm not talking about an immediate sublimation or transfer of all her hopes and dreams onto her children – I read articles about Alpha Mummies who pour all their efforts into ensuring that their children leapfrog over every possible target, but I have yet to meet one in real life. Career success itself does not become less important. Instead, ambition has to jostle alongside other demands and desires, which our society still deems to be the particular preserve of women.

I struggled with this when I decided to leave work. I was plagued with fear that by walking away, I was betraying women who never had my chances, and worse, tainting those who came after me with guilt by association. I was making a reasoned choice based on my family's circumstances - but was I unwittingly 'giving in' to societal norms? Despite knowing it was nonsense, I was casting working women as a homogeneous group, a 'side' that I was letting down.

We need to remember that the decisions individual women make should not be taken as representative of mothers in general. The mother with a new-ish baby may want to reduce her hours in order to spend more time with him, the mother with school-age children may judiciously trade a measure of "fulfilment" (whatever that means) for flexibility in order to make family life run more smoothly. It would have made my decision much less painful to acknowledge - and to hear acknowledged from others - that a particular course of action reflects a specific set of circumstances, and not a more general attitude.

Sometimes, perhaps, the wish to do the best job possible at the time wins out over the wish to have the best job possible – and perhaps we need to think more clearly about who wins or loses as a result. In a difficult economic climate, as employers push for greater productivity and commitment, it is more important than ever to keep demonstrating that a valuable contribution doesn't necessarily depend on being the first one in and the last one to leave, or contributing to the largest number of group emails. You can still do a fantastic job even when your car is a mess. Just ask my old boss.

If you're looking a job that fits with your family life, visit Mumsnet Jobs here.

OP posts:
RJnomore · 26/05/2015 22:02

I found having my first child kick started my ambition. I had someone I wanted to prove something to. And more than that, a daughter I wanted to see me being self reliant and capable of financial independence.

I do think I've achieved s good balance of everything. What makes it work is a supportive and on board with this is how it is DH. Also somehting had to give along the way, I chose the housework...

DougalTheCheshireCat · 26/05/2015 22:15

My ambition is just the same as it was, but now I am balancing it with an ambition to be a great parent. This means that, at the moment, sometime I am saying 'no' at work in favour of my children and family.

Society has expected women to do this, but not men. No, it's worse: society still suggest men are lesser men if they do this.

I see my DH wrestle with his desire to be around at home vs how his identity, sense of self worth, status are tided up in his job and perceived career success.

In this way the patriarchy fails men, just as much as it does women: it doesn't make them happy, not in the long run, not even those that buy into their own oppression and think it does. Just google the article 'top five regrets of the dying' written by a hospice nurse. All the men she nursed wished, at the end, that they'd spent less time at work and more with their family. What a tragedy so many figure it out too late.

We need, as a society to accept and better accommodate the demands and responsibility of parenting. We need to encourage / enable / require men to participate more equally in it. The gender gap at work would hugely reduce or disappear, and we'd all benefit from children who have both parents more engaged.

I may have to support Sandi Tosvig's party to make this happen.

Vive la revolution

textfan · 26/05/2015 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drinkscabinet · 26/05/2015 23:05

Agree with all the PPs that it requires fathers to pull their weight. I've had conversations with men at work who have said they work full time because their wife earns less and others because their wife earns more Confused. We have a flexible employer with a lot of parents working part time or shifted hours to fit round family life but there are still some fathers who make any excuse to get out of family responsibilities.

DH and I have both worked 4 days a week since the kids were born. I think it's been really beneficial to the kids to have two main carers, we are able to bring different skills to parenting that is good for the kids. Not every family will be able to do that but until there is gender equality in parenting (so equal numbers of PT Mums and Dads and equal numbers of SAHM and SAHDs) women will always be consigned to the mummy track whether or not they are happy to be there.

MadameLeBean · 26/05/2015 23:12

Sleepless bunny has hit the nail on the head

andadietcoke · 26/05/2015 23:59

In November, after five months back at work my CEO informed our medical advisor (a personal friend, that was how he got the job; CEO apparently didn't realise) that I had 'lost my drive ambition' since returning to work. I have no idea what I did to perpetuate this. He certainly never asked me. In the months that followed I have been demoted and even considered pursuing constructive dismissal such is my devastation about it all. For ten years I have given everything to that company...

BeauregardLafontaine · 27/05/2015 00:43

I still have ambition but my ambitions lie in other (non-career) areas now. I also judge my success differently now that I have children, its not wrapped up in my performance / salary / reputation at work anymore.

CallieG · 27/05/2015 03:34

When we become mothers our priorities change, as they should, for most of us our ambition has to take a backseat to our children, If we have attained some degree of Advancement in a professional field it is hard to maintain it, especially when our babies are little and our instincts drive us to be home with them not at work. I absolutely believe that keeping our professional lives on track has an awful lot to do with how supportive our partners are, if your partner is jealous, recalcitrant and acts like a bloody baby themselves you don't stand much chance of keeping your head above water, I went from being a successful professional, on track for promotion to being a stay at home single mother within 3 years of having my first child, because my husband did not support me and actually went out of his way to undermine me, I ended up being fired from a job I loved because the bosses did not see any point in my staying if I could not rely on my husbands support if I got promoted and being overpaid and over qualified for my current position, we divorced soon after for that and other reasons. A partner that does their fair share of the drudge work at home and supports your ambitions is essential to your combined success.

mumto3alexa · 27/05/2015 06:15

I have no instinct to stay at home at all callie. Not all women do.

fortunately · 27/05/2015 06:35

I'm a sing,e parent and have worked full time since DS was 8 months old. Not for any other reason that to keep a roof over our heads.

I am at the moment negotiating a total change of career to enable me to be more flexible as DS starts school. I'm looking forward to it, but I wouldn't be considering it if I didn't have DS.

His dad sees him "when he has time" ie on his day off. He wouldn't ever dream of juggling his working hours because DS needed him or because I needed help with childcare. I have no family so it 100% falls to me.

fortunately · 27/05/2015 06:37

Agreed, my instincts do not "drive me to be at home". I enjoy working, which is just as well Smile

WaitingForEgg · 27/05/2015 07:48

MadameLeBean I completely agree with your post. I see this all the time in my field (medicine). Doctors who are married, the woman winds up stuck in a lower ranking job, or compromises her speciality to have children. The man does what he likes, it makes me rage.
My husband is sharing mat leave with me so that I can return to medical school without a long gap. Child care and responsibilities are going to be a 50/50 split. None of this calling mummy every time something happens. I think the only way women can truly have equality at work is if there is equality at home

ShatterResistant · 27/05/2015 09:28

Right now it's just patriarchal bullshit grinding away my determination.

This is a wonderful phrase, and one I will keep in mind when I am overlooked for opportunities because my boss "didn't think I was available". I am no less ambitious since becoming a mother, but he assumes I am. Discrimination in action.

motherinferior · 27/05/2015 15:56

What instinct to stay at home? Did I miss a memo?

madwomanbackintheattic · 27/05/2015 16:40

Instincts?
Do make parents have those too?
Or is it just the women that are expected to?

Goodness, from the op to Callie, it's no wonder that the dads get away with not pulling their weight, is it?

The article is just an ad for the mn jobs page, so I can almost forgive the op for not mentioning the other half of the parenting spectrum, after all, they aren't the target audience for the marketing. It isn't really a meaningful ponder on ambition, it's an ad. It's still a bit embarassing in 2015 that mn aren't really pushing the equality agenda, but hey ho. I suppose that's tied up with the business as well, rather than anything more altruistic.

As ever, pay more attention to what isn't said. The op is just another advert for the status quo. Sad.

madwomanbackintheattic · 27/05/2015 16:41

Male parents lol dang typos.

funnyperson · 27/05/2015 16:43

When men have babies, their bosses put them up for promotion or a salary raise on the assumption they now have a family to support. This is the culture that working women need to be created for them too.

Roll on the day when a man who has a baby has the option to go back to work part time.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/05/2015 16:46

I disagree with you, callie, about instincts to stay home, but I'm sorry your ex screwed you over on his half of the parenting equation.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/05/2015 16:50

"Roll on the day when a man who has a baby has the option to go back to work part time."

The right to request flexible working is available to fathers.

madwomanbackintheattic · 27/05/2015 17:07

Funny, you are absolutely right. Both myself and a male colleague were in identical jobs when a promotion opportunity came up. My (male) boss gave the promotion to my male colleague, on the exact basis you describe. 'x has a wife and family'. The (female) colleague moving on and creating the promotion opportunity was privy to the discussions as to all intents and purposes as candidates there was nothing between myself and the male peer professionally (although I had more experience in the role) so that was the ultimate deciding factor. The female colleague approached me privately and offered to support me through any discrimination complaint I wished to make, as she was aghast.

Where is my ambition, you say? Pretty much crushed by the jackboots of the patriarchy, now you come to mention it.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/05/2015 17:24

Blimey mad, that sucks.

madwomanbackintheattic · 27/05/2015 20:08

Indeed. I should have hauled his ass to tribunal.

Instead, I left and went back to university, to attend sociology lectures with younger students who opined that feminism was unnecessary in these days of equality. FML.

I suspect at least the female ones will ultimately wake the fuck up. Unless they swallow the cultural placebo that convinces women their ambitions will fundamentally change when they have children...

howabout · 27/05/2015 20:27

Madwoman I know women who have gone down the tribunal route and even if you win it doesn't give your career back and gives you lots of baggage to boot. I also know other women who walked away and like you are left with the need to vent their ambition. I actually think we are going backwards which depresses me no end.

PomeralLights · 27/05/2015 20:35

I remember my (female) boss of department (lot of power and autonomy) having a argument with big boss about hiring men vs women at a training day.

She made all the department hires - he rubber stamped them but never contradicted her decisions.

She was arguing that she liked recruiting mothers 'once they've got hours and childcare sorted, they never leave. We're a highly specialist team who needs staff continuity...women are the best for that'

He was arguing for recruiting men (parent status irrelevant) 'more drive and ambition, yes higher turnover but then they have an insight into our competitors too'.

Looking back, the craziest thing is not the stereotypes. It was this conversation A) happening at all and B) in front of all the other staff in her department (about 15, all on the training). I was a new grad joiner and I couldn't believe how little regard they had for rules about discrimination.

All this 'ambition' stuff is crap. It's the stereotypes we all draw of others - and contribute to - that perpetuates the problems. Stereotypes like the ones in the OP.

And yy to this just being a shit advert Hmm

BagsyThisName · 27/05/2015 21:43

mumto3alexa your post jumped out at me.

You referred to your DH as cutting back his hours for you and that there are men who will give it all up for their wives.

I have never heard a SAHM being referred to as giving up work for her DH, it is always for her family or for her children.

The way you worded it suggests it is the wife's role that he is taking, not a role he should be expected to do as much as you.

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