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Guest post: 'Let's start counting dead women, not ignoring them'

97 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 07/10/2014 15:22

I started counting dead women in January 2012. In the first three days of the year, eight women in the UK were killed through men's violence. Eight dead women in three days: three were shot, two stabbed, one strangled, one smothered and one - 87-year-old Kathleen Millward - was beaten to death by 15 blunt force trauma injuries inflicted by her own grandson.

Eight women aged between 20 and 87; their killers, five men aged between 19 and 48, were husbands, partners, boyfriends or exes, a sister's partner, an aunt's partner, a robber and a grandson. I was outraged that these murders were being reported as isolated incidents - that connections weren't being made about the occurrence and impact of men's violence.

I didn't intend to start a campaign, but once I'd started counting and naming the women, I didn't feel able to stop. Initially I focused on women killed through domestic violence, but the boundaries of who I was counting were continually tested. At the end of the year, I tried to define who I was counting and who I wasn't, using the term ‘gender related murder’. I was trying to express that fatal male violence against women goes beyond ‘domestic violence’; that there is more to men's misogynistic murders of women than the widely used phrase ‘two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners’, and that socially constructed gender has an influence on men's violence against women that goes beyond domestic violence.

Nearly three years after I started counting, I now include all women aged 14 and over who have been killed by men in the UK and UK women killed overseas: regardless of the relationship between the woman and the man who killed her; regardless of what is known, not known or assumed about his motive; regardless of how he killed her and who else he killed at the same time; regardless of the verdict reached when the case gets to court in our justice system created by men, which repeatedly delivers anything but justice to women. I do it because I believe that - in a world where sexism and misogyny are so pervasive that they're all but inescapable - a man killing a woman is always a sexist act, a fatal enactment of patriarchy.

Because I'm counting dead women, I've been able to make connections that others simply wouldn't know about. It’s not just that in the UK men killed 126 women in 2012, 144 in 2013 and between January and the end of September this year at least 112 women have been killed through suspected male violence. It's that 37 of these have been women who have been killed by their sons, and that 20 elderly women have been killed in so-called botched robberies or muggings. On 4 September this year, 82-year-old Palmira Silva was beheaded in London, but most people didn't know that she was the third women to have been beheaded in London in less than six months. I did, though. On the 3 June 2014, Tahira Ahmed, 38, had also been decapitated. Her husband, Naveed Ahmed, 41, was charged with her murder; and in April, Judith Nibbs, 60, was decapitated, allegedly by her estranged husband Dempsey Nibbs, 67.

The Home Office currently records and publishes data on homicide victims’ gender and the relationship of the victim to the principal suspect - but it does so in a way that does not reveal the sex of the killer. We may be able to see how many women were killed by a partner and assume that most of them were male, but the records don't show us that most women killed by their child are killed by a son, or that most women killed by a relative, acquaintance or stranger are actually killed by a male relative, acquaintance or stranger. The Home Office records don't allow us to make connections across the different forms of men's fatal violence; in fact, the official government statistics hide the extent to which the problem of fatal violence is a problem of male violence.

This is significant, because it's by making the connections between instances of fatal male violence against women that we can get a true understanding of what is going on. I started this project because I wanted to remember and commemorate the women who have been killed by men, to raise awareness and motivate others to speak out and oppose men's violence. That is still important to me, but I also want to contribute to reducing, if not ending, men's violence against women and girls. If this is going to happen, we need to name and analyse male violence. So I started a petition calling for a ‘femicide observatory’, a fit-for-purpose, comprehensive record of fatal male violence against women.

I've been working with Women's Aid and Freshfields solicitors to develop a database of all women killed by men between 2009 and 2013, but we're going to need funding to support the development and maintenance of the sort of records that we'd like to keep. We want proper records, which we could then make accessible to policy makers and academics, in order to build a better understanding of the social, cultural and psychological issues that enable men's violence against women.

To show your support and add your voice to my call for a proper record, please sign my petition 'Stop Ignoring Dead Women'. Men's fatal violence against women is not a series of isolated incidents – it's connected and systemic. Men's violence against women is both a symptom and cause of inequality between women and men. Men's violence against women affects all women, directly or indirectly. And we need to stop it.

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 16:08

no one is saying that men and women don't think differently within our current societal structure

what we're disputing is that that is innate - it's impossible to say given said societal structure

no need to be sarky about physiological differences

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 16:08

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 16:09

give "delusions of gender" a read. it's interesting

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:20

It's always interesting to me that the accusation of being closed minded is banded about by the very people who are intensely arguing a certain viewpoint, and errrm, aren't keen on having that challenged.

As it happens I have no particular viewpoint. This thread came up on the Active Thread list and I clicked in it because I thought the thread title looked interesting. I chose to comment at all because I thought the opening post was so well written and have continued to post because I was interested in hearing other peoples views.

I'm surprised at how aggressive and argumentative some of your posts are becoming, particularly given the subject matter. I guess it shows that when you feel passionate about something you get defensive about it and in some circumstances one might assume this could lead to anger. Perhaps this serves to show just how equal the sexes actually are.

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 16:28

your comment

"I'm assuming you are still accepting that men can't give birth to children and women can? It seems that it is not acceptable on this thread to say men and women might think differently but I'm hoping we are still in agreement that men and women are physically different?"

was rather provocative, no?

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:32

Petula we were peddling backwards I thought and I wanted to find a settling point. I thought if we could at least all agree to men and women being anatomically different we could move forward again from that point.

Provocative no, sorry.

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 16:33

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BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 16:36

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scallopsrgreat · 09/10/2014 16:36

You came on here and said that women were responsible for men's behaviour and dressed this up as some evo-psych bullshit. It was provocative and you got the response you deserved NewEra.

But I think you know that.

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:37

Well actually a penis and clitoris is essentially the same organ Grin

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:39

Scallops that was your interpretation of my post, certainly not what I was thinking when I wrote it. I think you are projecting a little here and venting your disgust on the wrong person.

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 16:41

you've said you're not coming at this from any angle, but have seen a tv programme that put across the evolutionary psych POV

i've suggested looking at "delusions of gender" for an alternative POV. it might convince you that the tv programme was wrong, it might not, but it will expand your understanding of the arguments and help to see where those who are criticising the evo psych POV are coming from

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 16:41

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scallopsrgreat · 09/10/2014 16:42

No I am not projecting (and even if I was what would I be projecting Confused? Not wanting to be blamed for men being violent? Well duh!)

And that is what you wrote: "...unfortunately women will invoke a strong response in men whether we like it or not."

scallopsrgreat · 09/10/2014 16:43

As usual Buffy is a lot more reasonable (and more productive) in asking you to explain what you mean Grin.

BrewsterToo · 09/10/2014 16:48

NewEra, interesting that you find that having people disagreeing with you, and being persistent in pointing out where the flaws in your thinking might lie, is aggressive and argumentative.

I don't perceive the discussion as aggressive and argumentative, but rather informative and civil. Well, up until you started accusing your partners of not being keen on having their viewpoint challenged and being aggressive and argumentative.

How often do you have women disagreeing with you and persisting in telling you so? Could it be your discomfort with that, which causes you to interpret this behaviour as aggressive and argumentative? Are you aware you might be trying to silence your partners in this discussion by using these descriptions, which are generally regarded as very undesirable for women? You may not be consciously aware of it. Have a re-read and a think. Do you really think the discussion was aggressive and argumentative? Or is it just uncomfortable to be disagreed with. By women.

Feminists are not easily silenced, you know.

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:51

Ok I'll bite.

Women are one of the things that seem to provoke strong feelings in men. So when I mentioned a 'primal flash point' I was thinking of jealousy for example.

Now I'm not sure why that was immediately interpreted to mean that I condoned violence against women and was victim blaming. I was then called 'disgusting', which I chose to ignore as I didn't want to get into an argument.

If any comment on this thread was overtly provocative I think 'Disgusting' was probably it.

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:53

Brewster you seem to be wanting to silence me for some reason. Might be worth having a little think about why you are so keen for me to agree with you and cease to have my own thoughts and opinions.

Free speech still allowed on this thread I am assuming or would you like to censor me?

BrewsterToo · 09/10/2014 17:00

Men are not more jealous than women are (not that I know of, anyway). Feeling jealousy does not automatically and justifiably lead to violence. And women aren't the cause of men feeling jealous, (nor the other way around). The words "women provoke strong feelings in men" are very badly chosen, because that does sound as if you are blaming the mere existence of women for how men might feel, and justifying any violence that is motivated by that feeling.

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 17:00

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YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 17:00

"I'm assuming you are still accepting that men can't give birth to children and women can? It seems that it is not acceptable on this thread to say men and women might think differently but I'm hoping we are still in agreement that men and women are physically different?"

I don't see the relevance of this point. Both sexes have kidneys, spleens, arms and eyes. Men have penii Wink and testes, women have vaginas and uteri. Yup.

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 17:02

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YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 17:03

I used to be jealous of DH's ex girlfriend. That's a strong emotion. Never hit anyone because of it though.

What was the point again?

YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 17:04

Or, yeah, what Buffy said.

BrewsterToo · 09/10/2014 17:07

Ah no, I don't want to silence you at all.

I was just pointing out that describing a certain behaviour as aggressive and argumentative (or between the lines: unladylike) is a tactic that is often used to silence women.

You may not have been aware that this often happens, and that you seemed to use this tactic.

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