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Guest post: 'Let's start counting dead women, not ignoring them'

97 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 07/10/2014 15:22

I started counting dead women in January 2012. In the first three days of the year, eight women in the UK were killed through men's violence. Eight dead women in three days: three were shot, two stabbed, one strangled, one smothered and one - 87-year-old Kathleen Millward - was beaten to death by 15 blunt force trauma injuries inflicted by her own grandson.

Eight women aged between 20 and 87; their killers, five men aged between 19 and 48, were husbands, partners, boyfriends or exes, a sister's partner, an aunt's partner, a robber and a grandson. I was outraged that these murders were being reported as isolated incidents - that connections weren't being made about the occurrence and impact of men's violence.

I didn't intend to start a campaign, but once I'd started counting and naming the women, I didn't feel able to stop. Initially I focused on women killed through domestic violence, but the boundaries of who I was counting were continually tested. At the end of the year, I tried to define who I was counting and who I wasn't, using the term ‘gender related murder’. I was trying to express that fatal male violence against women goes beyond ‘domestic violence’; that there is more to men's misogynistic murders of women than the widely used phrase ‘two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners’, and that socially constructed gender has an influence on men's violence against women that goes beyond domestic violence.

Nearly three years after I started counting, I now include all women aged 14 and over who have been killed by men in the UK and UK women killed overseas: regardless of the relationship between the woman and the man who killed her; regardless of what is known, not known or assumed about his motive; regardless of how he killed her and who else he killed at the same time; regardless of the verdict reached when the case gets to court in our justice system created by men, which repeatedly delivers anything but justice to women. I do it because I believe that - in a world where sexism and misogyny are so pervasive that they're all but inescapable - a man killing a woman is always a sexist act, a fatal enactment of patriarchy.

Because I'm counting dead women, I've been able to make connections that others simply wouldn't know about. It’s not just that in the UK men killed 126 women in 2012, 144 in 2013 and between January and the end of September this year at least 112 women have been killed through suspected male violence. It's that 37 of these have been women who have been killed by their sons, and that 20 elderly women have been killed in so-called botched robberies or muggings. On 4 September this year, 82-year-old Palmira Silva was beheaded in London, but most people didn't know that she was the third women to have been beheaded in London in less than six months. I did, though. On the 3 June 2014, Tahira Ahmed, 38, had also been decapitated. Her husband, Naveed Ahmed, 41, was charged with her murder; and in April, Judith Nibbs, 60, was decapitated, allegedly by her estranged husband Dempsey Nibbs, 67.

The Home Office currently records and publishes data on homicide victims’ gender and the relationship of the victim to the principal suspect - but it does so in a way that does not reveal the sex of the killer. We may be able to see how many women were killed by a partner and assume that most of them were male, but the records don't show us that most women killed by their child are killed by a son, or that most women killed by a relative, acquaintance or stranger are actually killed by a male relative, acquaintance or stranger. The Home Office records don't allow us to make connections across the different forms of men's fatal violence; in fact, the official government statistics hide the extent to which the problem of fatal violence is a problem of male violence.

This is significant, because it's by making the connections between instances of fatal male violence against women that we can get a true understanding of what is going on. I started this project because I wanted to remember and commemorate the women who have been killed by men, to raise awareness and motivate others to speak out and oppose men's violence. That is still important to me, but I also want to contribute to reducing, if not ending, men's violence against women and girls. If this is going to happen, we need to name and analyse male violence. So I started a petition calling for a ‘femicide observatory’, a fit-for-purpose, comprehensive record of fatal male violence against women.

I've been working with Women's Aid and Freshfields solicitors to develop a database of all women killed by men between 2009 and 2013, but we're going to need funding to support the development and maintenance of the sort of records that we'd like to keep. We want proper records, which we could then make accessible to policy makers and academics, in order to build a better understanding of the social, cultural and psychological issues that enable men's violence against women.

To show your support and add your voice to my call for a proper record, please sign my petition 'Stop Ignoring Dead Women'. Men's fatal violence against women is not a series of isolated incidents – it's connected and systemic. Men's violence against women is both a symptom and cause of inequality between women and men. Men's violence against women affects all women, directly or indirectly. And we need to stop it.

OP posts:
TheSameBoat · 08/10/2014 14:38

DS told me that the boys in his school boast about how many people they kill on videogames. One boy told DS that his favourite thing is go up behind women and stab them.

Yes it's a virtual world and I'm sure these boys aren't all destined to be rapists or murderers, but it's a symptom of a culture that not only accepts male interest in violence as inevitable but glorifies it too.

Men and women may or may not be equally disposed to violence (who knows for sure) but the essential difference is that in boys it is indulged whilst in girls it is discouraged. I'm not saying it's unhealthy to be interested in guns and action (I quite like a good pretend gunfight myself) but violence shouldn't be glorified to the extent that it is.

cadno · 08/10/2014 14:55

why do you refuse to acknowledge men's violence against women?

I don't. Of those women that are murdered the vast majority of those committing the crime are men. What I'm wondering is - are there other factors that separates these men from other men (those that don't murder).

TheSameBoat · 08/10/2014 14:59

Cadno, I don't thinks there's a clearly drawn line. I would say it's a spectrum.

mylaptopismylapdog · 08/10/2014 17:56

I have signed but I also can't help wondering if also recording the number of women who kill men wouldn't help to highlight the issue too as I assume the number is lower. The contrast might provoke more discussion about the reasons for the difference whilst acknowledging the male victims of domestic violence.

scallopsrgreat · 08/10/2014 21:29

"...are there other factors that separates these men from other men (those that don't murder)." Sense of entitlement. The need to control. Hatred of women. Believing women exist for men's benefit. To name a few.

But until someone quantifies and examines the cases of male violence against women then the reasons behind the violence will be hidden (and therefore strategies to tackle it will not be visible)....Oh wait...

StephanieDA · 09/10/2014 11:08

Karen Ingala Smith is doing amazing brilliant work to highlight an issue that is not acknowledged or named in our society. Official figures are not collated for murder of women by men, which is a scandal. That's why the question 'is this a gender hate crime?' is never raised, as it would be for race or any other group. Looking at 'other factors' apart from being male is what is already being done, that's the whole point. It's the 'being male' bit which has always been obscured.

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 11:44

Do you not think the reason they haven't bothered to keep records on 'gender related murder' is because the assumption already is that the perpetrator is male?

I suspect I'm being horribly simplistic here *shudder, and I am by no means condoning violence against anyone, but aren't men more likely to use violence due to their physiological make up and testosterone hormone dominance? What makes some men have more of a predilection to use violence over mediation would be a combination of intelligence/education/nurture I assume, although many other factors could come into play, for example the use of drugs, sudden life changing events affecting mental health.

Women are born to be more nurturing as entities so IME when angry are more likely to self harm than harm. We must take evolution into account surely? To disregard our basic primal selves when we are discussing equality is strange to me. How on earth would humans have thrived if it wasn't for the male instinct to hunt and kill? Yes we have evolved to become intelligent and with education we should be able to communicate before raising a fist, but that primal flash point is still there and unfortunately women will invoke a strong response in men whether we like it or not.

scallopsrgreat · 09/10/2014 11:58

Ahh yes the old evo-psyche stuff that allows men to be violent and keeps women in a submissive, oppressed role.

Social conditioning has a massive effect on the way people behave. It is no different with violence. Violence in men is condoned, ignored, minimised. That is why men are more violent than women.

"...unfortunately women will invoke a strong response in men whether we like it or not." Wow! Just wow! So it is women's fault that men can't control themselves. Because that is what you are saying there.

Disgusting.

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 12:04

NewEraNewMindset that is exactly the mindset that the campaign seeks to challenge

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 12:11

Petula I'll accept that, sounds entirely reasonable that we need the data to analyse before we can decide what other factors are at play here.

cadno · 09/10/2014 13:59

The obtaining of reliable data is another huge problem. There needs to be a robust system for doing so - I'd like to see a dedicated agency to do it - but again the devil is in the detail. It's unrealistic to expect the criminal justice system to be able to supply very much data other than the basics (then again, you have to start somewhere).

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 14:08

um... htat is what this petition is about

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 14:54

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BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 15:04

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NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 15:10

Buggy that's really interesting. One might also assume that women did much of the foraging whilst men might have been responsible for the occasional meat feast.

I'm not sure I think male violence is normal but I do think they are more pre-disposed to be violent. My assumption is that it is down to their hormones primarily, has that been proven to be incorrect?

YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 15:13

" it was the foraging of early humans that provided the majority of the group's sustenance"

Yy to this times 1000.

And who knows who participated in whatever hunting there was? I suspect much "hunting" was trapping small animals etc.

Saw a programme about a present day tribal group somewhere (vague) who essentially tricked a group of lions away from their kill and nicked a big haunch of meat whilst they were gone. Not sure what evo psych has to say on that one...

YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 15:14

" One might also assume that women did much of the foraging whilst men might have been responsible for the occasional meat feast"

NewEra, I think foraging was more or less constant and more or less done by all who were physically able to do so.

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 15:26

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NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 15:42

I can remember watching a program years back that showed how different men and women were when it came to dealing with certain situations. They were wired up and scientists were able to show which areas of the brain were being activated in various situations.

The two that stick in my mind was when dealing with an emotional argument the woman's brain was firing all over the place whilst the man's brain had a tiny area 'lit up' (this is inviting a sarcastic comment lol), and then what was happening during a parking task, to prove that men were better (on the whole) at spacial awareness at which areas were working to enable that.

So I am assuming we are wired differently, we handle situations differently, each sex brings something different to the table.

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 15:45

delusions of gender has an interesting perspective on those theories

and the brain is very plastic, so it is very difficult to determine the extent of the impact of our environment and socialisation on the brain's development

PetulaGordino · 09/10/2014 15:48

remember none of this happens in a vacuum, neither the brain development nor the research undertaken

YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 15:50

Did they also check the different brain responses of brown eyed people and blue eyed people to an argument?

Did they correct for bias caused by the fact that, say, the subjects knew they were being observed performing gendered tasks and that thereby their responses might be coloured by that?

YonicScrewdriver · 09/10/2014 15:51

Please change bias to confirmation bias in the above post. Thanks.

NewEraNewMindset · 09/10/2014 16:04

Yonic if I could remember the program I might be able to give some more information, unfortunately I can't.

I'm assuming you are still accepting that men can't give birth to children and women can? It seems that it is not acceptable on this thread to say men and women might think differently but I'm hoping we are still in agreement that men and women are physically different?

BuffyRedRidingHood · 09/10/2014 16:06

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.