Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: Shirley Conran - 'maths is a feminist issue'

59 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 12/09/2014 17:03

The only sex education my mother ever gave me was a little book about goldfish; so if I ever fall in love with a goldfish, I shall know exactly what to do. Sex was one of those things people assumed young ladies didn't need to know about. Another was money, and I was taught even less about that. Whilst (thankfully) our sex education has come on leaps and bounds, I believe there's still an issue with what we tell our daughters about finance and maths.

First off, there are a couple of myths about maths that need addressing. The first is that some people are born with a ‘gift’ for maths which others lack. Actually, only 3% of us have dyscalculia – which means you really can't do maths – so 97% of us are more than capable.

Secondly, it's a myth that boys are naturally better at maths than girls. In fact, girls actually do better than boys until puberty. But it seems that lots of girls are led to believe that once they leave school, the only time they’ll need maths is to calculate their cycle.

Clearly, we'll all need maths after school, for everything from going to the shops to starting your own business. It is part of an adult's daily life, and you can't do much without it.

As a schoolgirl, I experienced a fear of maths that I now know was down to bad teaching. When I started a business, I had to teach myself the basics. I didn't learn bookkeeping until I was fifty years old - my son's PA taught me in half an hour, and it transformed my life. Suddenly, all the maths stuff made sense and I asked myself, why - when I now found maths so interesting, useful and easy to understand - had I ever found it so terrifying?

The answer became obvious when I started researching for an online maths course I was writing. A number of girls and women told me: “I'm hopeless as maths because my mother was.” But surely they would never have said they couldn't read or write because their mother couldn't? Lots of them seemed to believe that boys had inherited a few extra chromosomes, perhaps called MA (‘Maths Ability’) and GM (‘Good at Money’).

Too often, I still hear the phrase “my partner does all our money stuff”. I think that lots of women still lack the confidence to take charge of their family’s finances, and it becomes easier to accept that the man will be the one to look after the mortgage payments and life insurance, because, naturally he will have MA and GM. But what if said man falls under a bus?

I want all women to be able to know whether she is getting the best deal, from her energy bills to her phone plan. Women need maths to be independent. Sometimes, relying on your partner’s income is unavoidable. The gender pay gap, maternity leave, the cost of childcare – society is structured so that many women, at various points in their lives, are financially dependent on men. But a good understanding of maths and budgeting can mitigate this.

If a woman believes she can’t understand money, then she can’t interfere with a man’s expenditure or financial plans. It has suited men to have women believe that they are physiologically lacking in maths ability – and it still does. This is why maths is a feminist issue.

Maths is essential to making money and spending it shrewdly. It costs an average of £220,000 to raise a child, and when the majority of day-to-day costs are still left to the mothers to sort out, the least we can do is equip our daughters with the budgeting skills they'll need.

If you are someone who lacks confidence in maths, I believe that you can learn it by yourself, half an hour at a time. There really is nothing to stop you: you have as much MA and GM as any man.

OP posts:
CalamitouslyWrong · 13/09/2014 11:08

I agree agree with others that it's sad that the utility of maths for girls and women is reduced to household budgeting. It might be more accurate to have called the blog post: very basic accountancy is a feminist issue.

The underrepresentation of women in stem subjects is a huge issue for society. And it's ridiculous that maths can still be seen as not something for girls. But let's not pretend it's just about household budgets.

CalamitouslyWrong · 13/09/2014 11:10

It's widely acceptable to say you're shit at spelling (indeed people wear shit spelling on the Internet as a badge of honour). And also to be unable to read a map or recall dates from history (or even to be totally ignorant of huge historical events).

CalamitouslyWrong · 13/09/2014 11:14

Indeed, many people are proud of being shit at spelling and grammar to the extent that anyone who points out that this impedes your ability to express yourself adequately gets shouted down as an outrageous pedant. It's not just arithmetic that people are almost proud of being crap at and feel is 'too hard' for them.

stealthsquiggle · 13/09/2014 11:15

True enough, calamitously. Perverse pride in rubbish spelling and grammar (other than due to dyslexia) is annoying, but fairly gender neutral. The map thing makes me stabby too, though - "oooh, I am rubbish at maps, girls are, aren't they...."

No, they are bloody not. I can read a map perfectly well, thank you, and there is no reason why you couldn't either if you tried (or none related to your gender, anyway)

CalamitouslyWrong · 13/09/2014 11:32

I think the issue is more a general anti-intellectualism, which combined with general sexism in society makes it all too easy to write girls and women off. 'Oh well, I'm just a girl (and won't amount to anything); let the boys worry about all that hard stuff' is a very dangerous idea.

Incidentally, you almost never hear anyone say (with pride), 'oh, I can't count'. Or recognise basic shapes for that matter.

HaveYouTriedARewardChart · 13/09/2014 11:36

PausingFlatly I'm not sure. I think there are of course lots of other reasons why women don't get involved in family finances. I can't imagine inability to perform basic functions on a calculator is really one of them.
However I have an eight day old dc3 with tongue tie. I am prepared to admit I may have misunderstood something Grin

KatyMac · 13/09/2014 11:49

I think the problem starts in early years - more & more we are emulating the Swedish/Scandinavian early years programmes because of the excellent results for humanities in later education. However they need to import mathematician/engineers & programmers from the UK, Switzerland and Germany as the qualifications in those subjects are poor, so poor that despite Swedish students being able to come to the UK to study in languages/history/etc they aren't qualified enough to study Maths/science/etc

senua · 13/09/2014 13:04

Sorry, I can't bite my tongue any longer.

This is not a feminist issue. SC is just using it as a handle to peddle her wares. If I think of the women that I know most of them are perfectly competent with Maths - accountants, doctors, pharmacists, dietitians, cashiers, cakemakers, teachers, nurses, artisan soapmaker, lab technician, surveyor. As calamity says, the issue may be an anti-intellectual one but it is not feminist.

I take offence at her swipe at bookkeeping, a job that is mainly done by women. SC should be saying "look, they can do this numbers stuff so you can too". Instead she belittles it as something you can learn (from a secretary!) in half an hour. Thanks for that, sister.

To set the record straight, you cannot pick up bookkeeping that quickly; you might grasp the overall concept but proficiency takes longer. That's why there are exams and qualifications to prove competency.

Here's a numbers tip, SC. If you aim a book at women-only then you lose half your potential customer base. Why isn't this also marketed also at men because there are enough of them that "don't do numbers" too.

Pico2 · 13/09/2014 13:25

You're right Senua - the finance function at my office is about 85% women. However the higher level jobs are all taken by men. The basic arithmetic that is required for all levels of finance isn't the issue. The lack of women in senior roles is.

Feenie · 13/09/2014 13:36

The only sex education my mother ever gave me was a little book about goldfish; so if I ever fall in love with a goldfish, I shall know exactly what to do.

Off topic, I know, but this is Shirley Conran who wrote 'Lace', yes?

The above quote explains a lot about that book.

FinDeSemaine · 13/09/2014 16:17

Feenie, you just made me properly laugh.

Feenie · 13/09/2014 17:17
Grin
EBearhug · 13/09/2014 17:30

It is a feminist issue.

Yes, everyone should have enough ability in arithmetic to be able to do household finances; we should have enough understanding of fractions and decimals and percentages to know whether or not a 50% reduction is better than a third off when we buy something in a sale. We should know enough about measuring and calculating areas to know how many pots of paint or rolls of wallpaper to buy. We all use basic algebra all the time, even though most of us won't be aware of it, and those of us who work in IT will use a lot more, as well as different number bases.

It's a feminist issue not just because of household finances, but also because fewer girls take subjects like maths & physics to A-level and beyond, but more from single sex schools do, which suggests it's something cultural at work, rather than it just not being a girl thing. Studies and experiments into stereotype threat show one reason girls might do worse at maths is because they're always being told they're not as good at it (so it's just as important not to label subjects like literature as "girls' subjects" or "boys aren't good at it".)

Jobs in the sciences, economics, IT and other fields are important for the future of this country. IT in particular is at the back of everything these days and if women are not entering these fields, we're just letting men have all the power. If we are also letting them have all the financial power at home too - well, why would we?

MollyBdenum · 13/09/2014 17:37

I'd also like to see a much greater recognition of dyscalculia. I managed to get through school without anyone noticing, possibly because I am reasonably competent at arithmetic. My dyscalculia didn't interfere with my maths learning all that much (I was in the top set for maths at a grammar school) but caused me to struggle with music, chemistry, art and geography, and made history problematic, especially at A-level.

As an adult, it has affected my timekeeping, budgeting and ability to stick to a budget, ability to drive, and makes working with numbers very stressful. I also have to get DP to do my internet bank transfers, because I can't get past my bank's security system.

HaveYouTriedARewardChart · 13/09/2014 17:54

Women choosing to study stem subjects and getting jobs in those areas is, I agree, a feminist issue. As is the financial literacy and confidence to be involved in financial decision making for the family.

However the op seemed to suggest that women need to acquire the primary school maths required to understand an energy bill. Confused

But

madwomanbackintheattic · 13/09/2014 18:43

Dd1 wants to be a geneticist, ds1 wants to be an architect, dd2 wants to be a physicist of some sort. Dh is an engineer, my qualifications are all arts based (my three maths a levels bored me to tears and although I started uni with a dual math/ arts course, I canned the maths after the first year). That said, I volunteer as a treasurer for two different not for profits, spend about half of my work day on financial matters, and am largely the one responsible for our household finances...

Personally speaking, the maths debate feels like an anti-intellectual issue, however the context of this is in our society is definitely that dudes are the ones with brains, wimmin are the decorative sort, hence any anti-intellectualism is at root a feminist issue (notwithstanding the role class plays).

I have no idea what I did to deserve a house full of geeks, but when your dd comes home with a huge grin on her face and announces her delight that they started trig today, I can safely assume that my gals are doing their bit to normalise women in STEM... even if it means that I glaze over at mealtimes when they all get going...

I run an older girl guides group - the programming has a huge STEM base these days, and outside agencies run financial awareness sessions for us routinely, right from the 5-6yo age group up to mid-teens. Thanks for this thread - you have reminded me that I need to book this year's sessions Grin

stickygotstuck · 14/09/2014 10:22

I disagree that people are proud to be "rubbish at maths" or "rubbish at grammar". I think people are ashamed and they cover it saying something which is a bit of a catchphrease.

I am not good at maths and that's a source of sadness to me. I wanted to do Physics at uni, but where I can from you couldn't get to ANY science degree if you didn't have something like an A or B maths A level. And that was that.

I am perfectly fine with arithmetic, but advanced maths I never "got". I never got the elegance and the beauty someone mentioned upthread, and it still pisses me off because I know that it is there.

Maths and I have unfinished business. But for what it's worth, I never felt that girls expected to do less well at maths in high school while I was there.

CalamitouslyWrong · 14/09/2014 10:47

Sticky: if you have unfinished business with maths, you could maybe have a look at something like khan academy. It's based on the American school system, but it's free and it teaches you whatever kind of maths you'd like to learn.

I don't think girls were expected to do less well at maths at my (mixed sex) high school either. I was in the too maths set, and it was more than half girls. Loads of my (female) friends went on to stem-y subjects at university and related careers. I did have a physics teacher who was a sexist dinosaur, but we (and the other teachers) thought he was completely ridiculous. His attitude was so out of place with the rest of the school.

I'm not sure it's worth focusing on the whole 'maths is a feminist issue' thing at all. There is a general problem around maths in this country, and there's a seriously entrenched issue with sexism and patriarchy. The latter might make the former worse for many girls and women, but focusing simply on the maths is to miss the woods for the trees.

ArgyMargy · 14/09/2014 10:56

I don't recognise this as a generalised attitude. Plenty of women I know are fully number literate and some, like me, run the family finances. I also agree that maths is not arithmetic. Maths is the most popular A level subject at my DCs former (state) school and the gender balance tilts slightly towards females. I think this is yet another instance of an individual taking their own experience/opinion and assuming that it's universal. So tiring.

thedevilinside · 14/09/2014 11:38

It's a generational thing, certainly when I was born in the late sixties, women were routinely told they couldn't do maths, both my mum and granny said it all the time, (and passed it on to me, who then repeated as a child) Teachers were downright sexist, one of our physics teachers used to sit all the girls at the back, telling them the subject wasn't for them. People seem to forget how much has changed in a very short time, be thankful for feminism

HomeHelpMeGawd · 14/09/2014 11:39

"The only sex education my mother ever gave me was a little book about goldfish"

Mother? Parents, surely?

Ironic that this article begins by blaming a woman!

stickygotstuck · 14/09/2014 12:24

thedevil, glad to hear you mention the generational thing. I think you have a point there.

Sadly, I also have the impression I grew up in a golden age of non-sexism (disclaimer - I'm 40 and grew up abroad), and children nowadays are subject to much. Much more everyday sexism than I ever was. I despair at some parents' comments in my DD's school, forever generalising that girls are like this and boys are like that. And telling their young DCs like it's fact.

Thanks for the tip about that maths program for people like me, btw!

CatKisser · 14/09/2014 15:58

I started a thread on this very subject on the Feminism/Women's Right board a few weeks ago and some of the responses were so interesting - and so useful as a teacher who is struggling with girls not reaching their potential in Maths.

worldgonecrazy · 15/09/2014 12:03

I read this blog feeling rather bemused. Perhaps things have changed, but when I was at school there was never any "girls can't do maths" undercurrent. The maths top group and top A-level group was an equal divide of boys/girls.

Have things changed in the 30 years since I left school?

I believe the lack of maths skills is down to a lack of good teaching methods, which leave those who feel phased by numbers feeling depressed and demoralised, regardless of their gender.

Iggly · 15/09/2014 14:43

I'm a woman and have a natural aptitude for maths. It was my stronger subject and my favourite. I still love numbers even now.

My mum used to tell me my dad was good at maths so encouraged me as well. I don't remember her saying she wasn't good with numbers.

So maybe for me it feels alien to call it a feminist issue but I can see how people might think that.

I have two DC, boy and girl and will encourage them both in everything be it maths,English whatever.

Swipe left for the next trending thread