Private versus State for the profoundly gifted

[avidskier]

I am trying to decide what to do with my profoundly gifted DD. She is currently in reception in a State primary school, considered "outstanding", with a huge waiting list.

So far the school has been very good on the pastoral care, but have no clue what to do with her academically. She is 5.5 and used as a mini TA going around teaching others to read (she can read an adult newspaper and spell 90% of the words in it).

The school has quite a few bright kids in the class. We have already asked if DD could be moved up a yeargroup (which her teacher thinks a good idea), but it wasn't endorsed by the Head ("if we allowed one kid to do it, they would all want to do it!").

There is no gifted and talented register that we know of or any other provision..

We cannot really afford to send her to private school, but know that they should technically be able to cater better to her needs.

My major worry is that DD will work out by about year 3 that there is nothing more the school can offer her and go off the rails.

By then however she will have lost her place at the highly selective private school as their main intake is for reception or year 1.

Can anyone offer any advice?

don't think you are asking me posy? (but dd2 was tested to prove she did not have a learning disability - as she has cerebral pasly and we were trying to move o'seas we needed proof for immigration purposes that she was not going to be a burden on the state (education or social services) and wouldn't require special school. unfortunately there is still a huge expectation that if you have cerebral palsy youst also have a leqarning disability, and only the official testing of an ep will prove otherwise )

school suggested skipping a year but decided against it. this year they have suggested skipping a grade again but have again decided against it. i have no particular feelings on skipping or not... depends on the cild i think. with her additional needs, dd2 is probably socially better off with her peer group, but they move her about academically in any case. i think she's going to do projects with other year groups next year, but here there is quite a lot of collaborative working between year groups.

lol - 'you must also have a learning disability' - apols - rubbish typing!

nick your dds school spound great

Sorry - haven't time to read the whole thread but our very gifted DD was identified as such 12 years ago by our state primary that tbh a lot of parents in our town dismiss, and I thought the Head did very well in getting her assessed - it was the school's iniiative rather than our's. It did throw me into turmoil. Our approach was to take advantage of everything available in terms of extra curricular stuff - especially music as after various activites this proved to be a wonderful area for our DD. At secondary there is an excellent range of opportunities - so we're lucky with our state school I guess.

Other things that helped? Mixed age classes gave some flexibility at primary.
NAGC run excellent workshops for the manchester/NW area (or they certainly used to. DD went for 4 years then youth orchestra took over.

Just ensuring that as a family we did interesting and varied activities she could enjoy. These children need a variety of challenge, but then so do all children in my opinion!

providing space occasionally to talk about feeling a bit different intellectually but also to discuss that this is not the only thing that counts in life!

The personality of the child of course is individual so you as parent will have a good idea what activities to offer as far as your budget allows.

Our secodnary has improved in terms of offering ops to these children.

HTH - DD seems fine and doing well at uni.

I would be classified by some as quite bright and I was very very bored at a state primary school probably an outstanding one (it is classified as that now) at the time. I was moved to private at 11 and again at 16 to a "hothouse" - I loved the hothouse and I finally felt at home. My DD shows similar tendencies although not gifted IMO and I am probably sending her to a school that would be classified to be a hothouse i.e. highly academic selective school at 4 after my experiences - if it doesn't suit I will pull her out but I loved being with other people like me and I hope my DD will.

My parents worked very hard in very low paid jobs to send me private then I got scholarships/bursaries.

I was at university with a few people that skipped a year or two or more and I would never do it personally to my child. There is always more stuff a child can learn at their level - more languages etc..

I think there is a lot to learn in each year and skipping a year is a shame.

My DD is 8 and is working at yr 6 level in most subjects but I would not dream of moving her up a year or two. She still needs to cover all topics, do art, DT, sports and everything else that goes on. She needs to get on with people her own age. Her teacher gives her plenty of work and so much goes on each day that I doubt she is bored.

Being clever is only one thing in life - I think happiness comes from how you get on with other people. I think kids being moved up a year or two will really struggle with maturity. Eg my DD likes making grass piles with her friends - the girls in year 6 want to hang out with boys in the bushes. She will get there eventually but I'd rather not before she is ready!

She now does piano which she is good at but finds that she has to work at it which is a very good leveller for her - I'd agree with other posters who suggest you find out of school activities that will challenge her - languages, music or rugby - whatever is out of her comfort zone for while!

I have 3 very bright kids. We are lucky enough to live in a village with a small but very good primary. My eldest will be in P7 this year but is working at a S3 level and is allowed. We have decided from S1 to send him to private school as it will be easier to continue at an avanced level. My second son is in P5 but working at S2 level. Last year they moved him up to a class with older children and it really didn't work well his freinds were in the other room where he wanted to be so this year he will be back with his year group. Alot of kids are very good at school work but they are also there to learn how to socialize which can be a big part doing well in life. Third child is exactly that bright and flexiable so we shall keep an eye on her.

Avidskier -- my dd1 was tested at age 9 by a private Ed Psych because we had issues with the school (long & dull story) and I needed reassurance that I wasn't going mad.

She scored somewhere above the 99.9th centile, ie. in the top 0.1% of the population. At the time she was in a rough-ish primary school in a tough area, which had no interest in G&T generally, and in her in particular. She was cross with the school quite a bit, and did get pee'd off with it all, as did we. The head had taken to crossing the road to avoid us, she was in a notoriously difficult class, and had a selection of deeply unimpressive teachers.

However, however... she had a close group of friends, which stood her in good stead, and still does. She learnt that the world does not revolve around her, and that lots of people don't value the things that interest her. She had a chance to be one of the alpha kids clique by virtue of being bright and middle class, rather than becoming the class nerd, which would have been the obvious role for her to take on in a more socially and academically homogenous environment. She learnt to work on her weaknesses (social interaction) rather than playing to her strengths (academic work, obv). She acquired a good set of coping skills for dealing with being called a geek and a nerd, and a robust ability to defend her own interests in the face of scorn from her peers and lack of interest from her teachers. She gained empathy for people who learn less quickly, and realised that not being able to read at 9 does not make you a lesser species of human being.

At 11 she got into a selective state school (and yes, she scored the highest mark in the entrance exam). She has learnt that if she makes a reasonable amount of effort, she can do really well. She also does some competitive sport (well but not outstandingly so) and has a Saturday job in a charity shop. She goes camping with friends when she can, and goes to a lot of gigs. She's doing GCSE's and is aiming for 10 A*s, gawd help us, and wants to go to Oxford. Maybe she will, or else she'll go to another university and get a good degree in a subject that interests her. Coupled with her robust life skills and good sense of who she is and where she's going, she has every chance of being able to find a path in life that suits her and fulfils her. She's calm, confident, funny and interesting to be around, has lots of friends and is emotionally resilient. All these things are more important than score on an IQ test.

I have a younger dd who is cut from the same cloth as the older one, to all appearances. I have not had her tested, nor would I do so. She enjoys school. The fact that she can read the Moomintroll books at age 5 while others are on Biff & Chip Stage 2 hasn't struck her as important, and nor should it. She enjoys school (different primary from dd1), and has never complained of being bored. If she were at a pushy private school, she would probably be 6 months ahead, and would definitely have neater handwriting. But so what? Outstanding school results in Y1 are not a good predictor of a happy and successful life.

You need to decide what is important to you. If you are going to spend the next 6 years fretting that your dd is unchallenged and is falling behind in the great race for an Oxbridge first, then go ahead and scrape together the cash to go private. If she's complaining consistently about hating school being unhappy, being bored then you also need to take action (though going private may not be a panacea here). But if she is muddling along happily, doing stuff at school she enjoys, has good friends and you get on reasonably well with the school staff, then I would take a giant chill pill (set up an IV if necessary) and leave her to do what 5yo children do best explore the world, learn new stuff, have fun and make friends. Keep a gentle eye on what she's doing at school, maybe do extra activities with her, get her to learn an instrument or play maths games with you. Make sure she has activities that require her to make an effort, so she doesn't assume that she has a god-given right to be able to do everything perfectly first time. Non-academic things may be just the ticket here swimming lessons were my dd1's nemesis, and it did her a world of good to have to cope with everybody else learning it faster than she could. If round about Y4 you still feel she's being under-demanded academically, then get a good tutor for an hour a week to give her a taste of what making an effort feels like, as well as sharpening up her writing and maths skills.

At 11+ there's a whole 'nother world of opportunity out there, and by then you will have a much better idea of who she is and what she wants from life, and more to the point, so will she. In the meantime, don't wish away her primary years by constantly looking over your shoulder to see whether there isn't something better just round the corner.

great post frogs - puts all the worries about what to do with a young child, who is substantially ahead of their peers academically, into perspective.

The wonderful thing about 5yos is that they will find challenge and interest everywhere and anywhere - however academically inclined they are.

The key thing has to be making sure that she's challenged by school and rewarded for doing well.

The difficulty with highly mixed ability state schools is that often the effort of challenging gifted kids is more than they're willing to put in. So you get the situation where the gifted child finishes the classwork and just get asked to repeat it whilst the othes catch up.

Also, there can be a degree of bullying if the school is not generally that academic (sounds odd to say that a school can be 'unacademic', but it all depends on the prevailing attitude of the kids).

Boredom and being singled out for being clever and attentive at school are the worst possible scenarios.

If neither of these apply, then your daughter probably will, in fact, do well, no matter where she's schooled. If either or both of these are a problem, then fix them asap.

Music and sport are great levellers...

My DD is very very good at most things but is a stand out in English, Maths, music, languages, art and sports. She is about to go into yr 2 and has been complaining about how boring school is and pesters her teachers for extra work (which she gets) and still isn't satisfied and comes home and asks us to set her complicated sums.

After much soul searching we have signed up for a private school with great sports facilities and a huge music and art department, and DD will go there when she starts year 3.

If DD was only good at one thing I would have kept her in state school as the local juniors should be able to cope, but she spends the majority of her time at school sitting around waiting for others to catch up, or helping others do maths.

I remember being very bored at school and waiting for people to catch up, staring out of the window most of the time. I got the reputation as a "day dreamer", no I was just bored! I just don't want that for DD.

Many posters seem to be obsessed with having a 'gifted' child.
I could read adult newspapers at 5 learned all my timestables by the time i 6 was etc. I am not gifted, i was just very inquisitive.
I have no problem with people wanting their children to do well academically, however i
just find it strange that people feel the need to find out the IQ of their children at such a young age.
My six year old dd can do many of the things listed by other posters, however i do not think that she is 'gifted' she is just a very bright girl. I will NOT be taking her to any organisation to find out her IQ, i will let her enjoy being a child.

One important point in accelerating a year is where in the academic year the child's birthday falls.

My sister and I were both bright, precocious learners. She's a few years older than me, and at that time it was routine to put the top few up from primary to grammar school a year early. My sister has a summer birthday and was therefore much, much younger and did miss out socially owing to difficulties at the start and then by doing a third 6th form year as she was too young for university - did get another A level and couple of O levels in that year though.

By the time I came along, the year early policy had been abolished. My birthday is early Sept - I would only have been a week adrift. Oldest in the year, and bright - not a great mix. I had the blessing (?) of staying with my mates. But bring top in everything was not a comfortable position: I never learned to learn.

Bright children need to be challenged - this might just not be possible in some circumstances: looking at accelerating a year at a natural school break point is, I think, worthwhile for children with Sept -Dec birthdays.

At the age of 2 I had a (tested) ability of an 8 year old, but I couldn't tie my shoe-laces. Who knows what I might have achieved if I was pushed, but I do know I would have cracked under the pressure of expectation.

As it was, I went to a state school, everyone expected me to ace everything, I ended up bombing my a-levels, then waited until everyone gave up expecting me to go to university before deciding that I would. I just didn't want everyone to pressure me.

I think you need to let her be a child.

It would be interesting to know what the outcomes at 21 of children who are seen as gifted actually are. It seems that most "gifted" children are reasonably bright and developing quickly, helped by educated parents who expect progress and can deliver help. But as the children get older, and others have had (albeit over a longer period) sufficient education, do they really do better at university? Whether you learnt to read at 4 or 8 is neither here nor there when you're 20 unless you have something concrete to show for it, and I'm not sure there's much evidence people actually do.

My daughters tick all the obvious boxes: learnt to read easily and young, top-ish of the class through state primary, G&T register, easy entry into state grammar school, top-ish of the class there, predicted to get almost consistently A* at GCSE, Grade VIII impending, etc, etc. If nothing goes wrong (big if) there's no reason to believe they won't be amongst the 30% of people at the school who get AAA at A2.

But it's not because they are amazing intellects. They're capable, motivated kids in a stable household with plenty of opportunity, like a lot of middle-class kids. They do their school work, do some practice, then do what kids do. They'll probably end up at decent universities, like the one we went to, alongside a large number of similarly capable, similarly supported students. Sure, I'm proud of them, and sure, we do what we can to enrich and extend their interests. But beyond that? Let them be children.

"Its like Mozart, composing at 4."

Actually, it probably isn't. Mozart's father was a professional musician, so being taught to play instruments with facility from an early age is hardly surprising. He picked out little pieces at an early age, which his father "wrote down" The son of a composer having his childhood work "written down" by his father would ring bells today, would it not? The works in question have, to put it mildly, a en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannerl_Notenbuchnuanced status, and are only retrospectively interesting. Any reasonably musical child doing Grade V theory who can play the piano and who has listened to a reasonable amount of music in that style would be able to do the same, with similar effect.

Mozart went on to be a major composer as an adult. Whether that's linked, who knows?

Link is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannerl_Notenbuch - I left a space out before the word "nuanced".

this is an old thread chaps

I am an April birthday and was skipped a year. Academically no problem - socially a nightmare - don't do it! It MATTERS when everone else is in a bra, has started their periods donkeys before you.....trying to fit in was not easy.

My ds is brainy - reading fluently at 2 1/2, reading harry Potter in reception (much to the teachers amusement)and whizzo at maths too.

He also the laziest child ..... why try at anything?? So his exam results may not be all A star when he sits them next year but he is happy and well adjusted. We have stretched him by getting him a chinese teacher so he could learn mandarin (great one for ANY bright kid) and I hope he will zoom ahead at A level when he is doing subjects he likes.

Clearly he has not lost his braininess (reads quantum physics books and the like for pleasure)so I have no worries and the well- roundedness is as important for a successful happy adulthood as IQ! We thought he may have aspergers as a toddler so developing his personality has been more important than stretching his brain.

Thing is, I'm not so sure why there has been so much jumping on the "profoundly gifted" phrase used by the OP. I can understand that some people might be sensitive to this phrase and there are a wide variety of "much above average" abilities but the OP is actually asking what she should do about her clearly very able (whatever phrase might seem to be appropriate) daughter, when the school "have no clue what to do with her academically" and "use her as a mini-TA".
She has valid concerns about what attitude her child may take if this continues and is looking for support and advice.
Pointing out the need for social emotional development as well as academic is of course helpful and I am very aware of how awful it can be if a parent is too pushy or is feeding their own emotional needs by dwelling on their child's "brightness" but why use the thread to argue about exactly which "label" is appropriate. The school doesn't seem to be meeting the child's needs very well (however bright/gifted she is) and the OP is looking for more information from those who have experienced similar situations.

Some inspired and reassuring stories here from parents of very bright kids who did well, although I noticed that many seem to have gone to state grammar schools as opposed to "bog standard comprehensives" - and it does make a big difference....

In real life I know 2 very bright kids who were, as the OP pointed out, going off the rails in Y4 and completely switched off after years of boredom at school. Both sets of parents (different families) pulled them out and put them in private and are now thriving.

I think there are many many parents on here who rightly worry about their kids (it doesn't matter how bright they really are) being unchallenged at school - it is a sad state of affairs.

It's great to hear that some have thrived all the same, or have been lucky and did get challenged, but it's a sad reality that many many kids lose interest and do fail. And it must be pretty heartbreaking to watch.

My DS, is in year 3 now, and like the op I had concerns too at the same age, the shcool was again oustanding etc... However I listened to the advice of his reception teacher as she said yes I can get your son to produce lovley peices of work for the wall, but it wouldn't be anything I had taught him, furthermore she voiced concerns about giving him the opportunity to be a child, and just enjoying play and socialising, as in her words " You wouldn't want your son to be one of those social freaks that goes to uni at ten, but has nothing in common, or is unable to relate to the other students, because of a lack of social skill's" And I think she was right, DS is as much a boy, as he is smart, and its that normality which keeps him grounded (most of the time!). So far year 3 has been the best year yet, and is shaping up to be the making of him, all barr a few quirky smart kid issues. So I'd say its fine for a little delay, just to keep childhood in perspective, because all too soon the hard work really begins :)

Something I do not understand in education in London and most specifically in west London: why there are so many good private schools and so average to poor level state schools? And why are the school fees gone so high? State primary are all nearly not good enough and lots of parents pay for private tuitions to keep up ! Some children are getting ready for their 7+ entrance exams and then what happen to ks2?