Private versus State for the profoundly gifted

[avidskier]

I am trying to decide what to do with my profoundly gifted DD. She is currently in reception in a State primary school, considered "outstanding", with a huge waiting list.

So far the school has been very good on the pastoral care, but have no clue what to do with her academically. She is 5.5 and used as a mini TA going around teaching others to read (she can read an adult newspaper and spell 90% of the words in it).

The school has quite a few bright kids in the class. We have already asked if DD could be moved up a yeargroup (which her teacher thinks a good idea), but it wasn't endorsed by the Head ("if we allowed one kid to do it, they would all want to do it!").

There is no gifted and talented register that we know of or any other provision..

We cannot really afford to send her to private school, but know that they should technically be able to cater better to her needs.

My major worry is that DD will work out by about year 3 that there is nothing more the school can offer her and go off the rails.

By then however she will have lost her place at the highly selective private school as their main intake is for reception or year 1.

Can anyone offer any advice?

Sorry Riven - I know you know your dd better than I do (clearly) but on paper, a child who teaches themselves to read properly at 2 (not just a few words) would most likely be profoundly gifted and have other exceptional skills too.

I mean how many children do you know who teach themselves to read at two?

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My experience of school in England was like yours second. I spent a year desperately trying to find something in the classroom to occupy me and desperately trying to be noticed for something (I remember reordering all the books in the reading corner and cataloguing them [saddo emoticon]) and also trying to fit in with children whose behaviour I found incomprehensible for the most part. It was a relief to be whisked off to France and be given something I could get my teeth into- learning how to read and write in French. It also helped a lot that the French system was a lot more structured and staged than the UK system at the time- I felt that I could achieve in France in a way I never had in my English school.

I can honestly say I had no idea what was going on most of the time in my English school, and that bothered me a lot. Oh and thank you, my year 1 teacher at Silsoe Primary circa 1974, for giving me that lifelong phobia of maths.

It's a very difficult one.....reading the NAGC website it doesn't seems that gifted children do always self motivate - some do and some don't. Hard to say which way your child will go, but it's not a pretty sight to watch.

My own DD is only in reception, but I noticed that a change in school has made a remarkable difference (from state to state so can't advise on private).

I assume other state schools are not available around you for you to explore? I guess you have already explored that....

Just for clarification - my DD has been assessed by a psychologist as being in the top 0.03% of ability range. It is not just me assuming that she must be bright because she can read at a young age.

It was the psychologist who said she falls within the "profoundly" gifted range which is just part of the categorisation of different levels of giftedness.

She is one of 50 children under age 10 in the UK who are Mensa members.

If you have put her forward for Mensa, then clearly it is Very Important to you. I would suggest then you find somewhere who will concentrate on the academic side (state or private).

My personal view is that academia is not the be-all-and-end-all and perhaps not where true happiness lies. If she truly does love learning, I believe she will continue to learn from the things the teacher says and life around her -surely she won't know EVERYTHING already?

Dd is amazingly talented at art (have not had her assessed!). See profile pics for old examples. She is probably fairly bright too. Am intrigued. Should I be pushing for her to be somewhere where this skill/talent will be nurtured? Or because it is art, is it not so important? Or will she just continue (with my encouragement) enjoying being creative? It's a genuine question as I am wondering if I have a slightly warped view on pushing/encouraging kids from my own experience (ie. my parents didn't. At all).

avid- how di your under 10 become amensa member. From what I've read they only test 10yrs and over. When we looked into other ways of 'assessing' DS we were told we would have to either pay c. £300 for a private educational psychologist assessment or ask his school to put him on a waiting list for an assessment, which would probably take about 2 years.

I'd be interested to know if there is something else we could do to get a 'concrete' assessment, rather than just home tests and teachers' opinions.

What I think there is on this forum is a very strong polarisation.

On the one hand you get parents who think all gifted children can motivate themselves and need no extra help and that it is a sign of preciousness if a parent points out that this isn't actually happening.

On the other hand you get parents who think all gifted children need extra help or they will get bored, also that all gifted children find it difficult to fit in and adapt themselves to other people- and that if you try to point out that yours actually does, then it's a sign that they can't really be gifted after all.

The truth is that some gifted children get bored easily and live out their frustrations in misbehaviour, others don't. Some gifted children find it difficult or not worthwhile to try to fit in with less gifted children, others think of this as just another interesting challenge, like advanced maths or the Greek verb system. For some gifted children maturity keeps pace with academic development, for others it doesn't.

You cannot look at a child's behaviour and gauge how gifted they are or what they will be able to do later in life. Either way.

But what we all hope is that our children will have a decent school experience, regardless of their particular personality.

As a profoundly gifted child will be top of the year in either their own year or the year above, but the year above are more likely to resent them for it as they are being 'shown up' by someone younger I don't think moving up one year always works out all that well for them. The level of work is still too easy, they still need lots of differentiation, and the older peer group are often less tolerant.

The best scenario for such a child is to be in a school where there is another such individual (or more) and where they are prepared to provide an individualised scheme of work. That school might be state or independent, but the higher the degree of intelligence the harder it will be to find a similarly able peer. Highly selective schools are more likely to attract such individuals (due to large catchment areas & selection), but given the rareity of extremely high IQs it's still not all that likely. In some cases selective schools are less good at differentiating for the extremely able as they are in habit of assuming everyone is in the same ability range.

Foreverastudent - We did pay for a private psychologist to assess DD1 and then DD2 and it was worth every penny.

Teachers often don't believe parents, so it definitely pays to have a professional back you what you are trying to get across.

I got Mensa membership for her so that she will have a support network if and when she wants it.

I Don't know if this will help , but it is my personal childs eye view of being gifted.
At the age of 6 I was first assessed and found to be gifted and dyslexic a lifelong frustrating combination. My first primary school refused to acknowledge either of these and consequently I coasted along. At 8 my parents moved me to an excellent boarding private school who both supported my dyslexic (teaching me how to cope) and stretched me, I missed out year 5 going straight into year 6, however I was deeply unhappy with that and consequently did not move on with that year group and rejoined my own year group at that stage beings stretched by the teachers.
On moving to my senior school the experience of being singled out and move up made me want to fly below the radar. I found particularly maths and science easy, but deliberately never excelled to not single myself out. I left with a good set of GCSEs 1A, 5Bs and 2Cs , but nothing outstanding. Fortunately my parents then moved me to a sixth form college with very small group size. This was my turning point and lead to 3As at A-level and a place to study veterinary medicine my dream. I now have 3 degree level qualifications.
Really what I am trying to say is that 'moving me up' was a disaster for me, however, at the end of the day I believe I did eventually achieve my full potential.

Hope you'll still all forgive my terrible spelling, dyslexia still hangs around.

I agree with Riven two of mine could do that in reception - they are bright not gifted.

avidskier - dd2 has the same level (i assume you have extrapolated the 0.03 from the 99.97 centile? across the board from wechsler testing?) dd2 has iq of 142 from that test, but i'm not sure where you have got the mensa figures from - apparently she could join lol, but we haven't signed her up... so i think your stats might be slightly skewed if i'm honest. even the ep who did the testing said that she was exceptionally bright, but certainly not the brightest she'd tested - not off the scale...

anyway, she's 6 now, so finishing her second year of full time education. there was some discussion this year whether she ought to skip the year and move up, but the ht decided against it. we had our transition meeting yesterday, and next year's teacher gave us the spiel about peers catching up with kids who teach themselves read early/ levelling out etc etc. this year's teacher just said 'oh, you need to get to know her'. the new teacher questioned her comprehension levels (you know, the 'oh, they can read anything but don't understand it' line. when i got home i dug out the report and looked for reading comprehension, where she came out with a comprehension age of 12 something or other (5.8)

anyway - so i just wanted to say, yes, she's bright, dd2 is too but maybe not 'profoundly gifted'? (unless i've totally missed the point and you are talking about some other test battery - not all bright kids join mensa )

fwiw we use state. with 3 kids who would benefit enormously from private we just couldn't afford it...

appropriate differentiation should be enough to keep her moving along for the first year or so (they routinely access other reading material and KS2 curriculum as needed in the schools we have used) and you can look later on to see if she needs more.

dd1 is about to be tested for access to an external gifted programme, they do exist - in the last school all three used the yg&t stuff - some unis offer parent/ teacher workshops annually etc.

nothing you decide now is set in stone - but i think the first couple of years in state is fine until you have something to base your decision on.

um, and wanted also to add that we didn't test for 'giftedness' lol - we had to get her tested because she has cerebral palsy and we needed proof that she didn't have a learning disability (long story - the lea wouldn't test her because it was obvious she didn't have a learning disability (duh), but we needed proof of that for emigration)

neither of my other two children have had ep testing (as i said the school are planning to formally assess dd1 because they want her to access the external programme), but ds1 is very similar. i actually don't hold much faith in wechsler testing if i'm honest - it gives you an idea of how bright a child is, but i don't know enough about it to gauge if the centiles they come up with are accurate.

i'm beginning to wonder if i should get ds1 tested as well he'll only feel left out without a formal iq telling him he's a mensa candidate

(and on a slightly humourous note, dd2 at 5 had a higher iq than her doctor, which he found hilarious . given that she walks like a drunk and drools, and all...)

Being in Mensa at a young age doesn't really show anything, as IQ stays the same throughout your life? Also, it doesn't mean that you're gifted.....

what do you hope to gain by all the mensa -iq testing and yeargroup skipping

why?

i only mentioned dd2's age in relation to her doc because she was a teeny tot with cerebral palsy, in comparison to a grown man with a medical degree. the rule of the playground dictates that doctors are clever, 5yos who drool and wobble are a bit thick. iq does indeed stay the same (ish) throughout life, but i guess you had to be there...