Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

Flip

1 2 3 4

Original poster

DS1 is going to be 'stretched sideways' next year apparently

77 replies

gingertoo · 21/07/2009 16:14

I'll give you a tiny bit of background.
Ds1 is 10 yrs old and has just finished Year 5 and is identified as G&T.
In May of Year 5 he sat Yr 6 SATs papers and got Level 5 across the board.
During Yr 5 he has been working with Year 6 to extend and challenge him.
At parents evening I talked to his teacher about how she was proposing to work with him in Year 6 (when there will be no older year groups for him to go and work with) She said that she had decided to 'stretch him sideways' rather than starting on KS3 work with him.
Unfortunately, we were only able to have a 10 min slot at parents evening but the teacher said she is happy to meet with us in Sept to discuss this further which is great, but I suppose before then I would like to have an idea about what this 'stretching sideways' involves and whether it is a good idea or not?!

So I suppose I'm asking whether anyone is a teacher or has had Dcs in this position at the start of Yr 6. Do you 'stretch sideways' or crack on with the KS3 curriculum? Which is better?

What do you think?

OP posts:

Loshad · 22/07/2009 23:19

coming in too to agree with kemble twins. DAL I don't know a single teacher in my (very large) secondary school who isn't aware of the school's G+T policy - we have to be, we have inset on it, whole school policies, departmental policies. G+T is a SEN, has been for a long time. I love teaching truly G+T pupils, it's a fab time for both of us, I love to be stretched by pupils, and asked interesting and thought provoking questions. I'm not so keen on the ones in second set whose parents are convinced they are a total genius and we are blind to the talents of their dear child. (whose poor behaviour btw also must also be constantly excused because (whisper) they're so bright)

DadAtLarge · 22/07/2009 23:22

Oh, yes, and you have KembleTwins fantastic display of expertise right here in this thread.

weegiemum · 22/07/2009 23:25

had to add - I love the G&T Geog pupils, for they are often ones who are not classified as that in other subjects!

Also, my dd1 (9) and ds (7) have both been identified as G&T, dd1 in maths, ds in Maths and language. And they are treated as having a SEN, we have meetings with the equivalent of the coordinator, they are "stretched sideways" in many exciting ways (both are now excellent at chess, for example, and can beat me and also dh, who played for his secondary school, hands down).

Sounds like DAL has had some bad experiences of G&T and is extrapolating to cover all schools!

cory · 22/07/2009 23:32

In secondary school, teachers are subject specialists, many with good degrees in their subjects: it would be odd indeed if none of them enjoyed the more advanced student with whom they could really discuss the subject.

fembear · 22/07/2009 23:45

I am at Kemble.
How can you have the nerve to say that you are fully au fait with G&T and then spout on about NAGTY which announced in 2006 that it would finish in 2007!?
That rather blows your credibility.

fembear · 22/07/2009 23:48

I know many kids who have had their interest in Maths squished out of them by poor teachers, Cory.

fembear · 22/07/2009 23:49

I mean many mathematically-gifted kids.

cory · 23/07/2009 00:06

I'm not saying that doesn't happen, fembear. I never said there aren't bad teachers. We all know there are. I've had some, dd has had some.

All I said is that it is likely that there are at least some teachers (whether good or bad teachers) who do not actively dislike gifted children. Certain posters did seem to suggest that teachers as a rule particularly dislike gifted children.

SueW · 23/07/2009 00:46

Kemble talks about her time in school before going on mat leave.

Kemble are you teaching at the moment or referring to prior experience?

fembear · 23/07/2009 08:20

Also, Kemble, NAGTY never catered for kids like DAL's and gingertoo's - it only ever covered Secondary, not Infant / Junior.

DadAtLarge · 23/07/2009 14:12

cory, of course there are some teachers who do not actively dislike gifted children. And that's a plus? I'd prefer if they actually liked ALL children.

Whatever their personal prejudices or lack of them this question should be asked: Are they doing what they should be doing for gifted children as determined by the DCSF and their school's policy?

Not what they think is the right thing.

There are teachers here who've come to the defence of KembleTwins. And close ranks if you think I've been harsh but Loshad, what exactly do you agree with KembleTwins on? That all G&T children are put on the SEN register rather than the G&T register? That you identify them by gut feeling rather than the 10% or whatever is in the school's policy doc? That NAGTY catered for primary school children? Do you agree that your fellow teacher is hopeless misinformed?

I commend those teachers who are up to date on these matters and, more importantly, do what they should be doing for gifted children. So Loshad and weegiemum, thanks on behalf of all the gifted children out there. What we won't see, of course, is a sudden rush of teachers coming here to balance the scales by admitting how pathetically ignorant they are on this, how prejudiced they are against gifted children and how they work towards levelling them down. No, for that we have to rely on national stats and the government's own reviews to give us a country-wide picture. (Not to say we don't have plenty of examples in MN of teachers biased against gifted children and clueless as to their responsibilities to them.)

SueW, KembleTwins doesn't seem to be answering but from her posts here she's currently teaching (scary!) and has 12 years' experience teaching secondary drama.

DadAtLarge · 23/07/2009 14:15

hopeless=hopelessly ... as in I'm hopelessly screwed up at proof reading. (Admins, have you considering modifying the forum code to allow post edits?)

KembleTwins · 23/07/2009 15:03

I think I made it clear earlier on, although that might have been on a different thread, that I have been teaching for 12 years, but that I am currently on maternity leave. I hold my hands up - I did not realise that the NAGTY had closed down. The school I worked at between 2000 and 2004 worked with it, but the one I moved to after that did not. That doesn't mean that I am crap at my job, that I have no clue about G&T children or the policy of the schools I have worked in. DAL you are not the expert, you do not have knowledge of all schools' G&T policies, and you consistently miss the point that being Gifted and/or Talented constitues having Special Educational Needs and therefore G&T can and IS dealt with by SEN departments in schools across the country, although, clearly, not all. DAL thinks that having special educational needs is a bad thing, and must mean that kids have learning difficulties, are physically or mentally disabled (see his earlier comments) and therefore cannot conceive of the idea that his Mathematically advanced DS might, at some schools, be considered to have special needs, which must be catered for. He has also missed the point about G&T being PART of SEN, not that "G&T children are put on the SEN regiser rather than the G&T register" I think that DAL is actually pretty prejudiced against any child who is NOT, in his opinion "gifted".
I am actually bloody good at my job, and, in all the schools I have taught in, have consistently produced results at GCSE and A Level that far outshine the average A*-C grades of the school as a whole. I have also worked with G&T kids within my subject, giving them the opportunity to perform at the Millennium Dome (yes, I know it's not there any more, this was in 2000), in the West End, and at other prestigious venues, thus providing them with unfortgetable experiences which have enriched their educational and social development. I would love to know what DAL does for a living, just so I can tell him he's crap at it.

weegiemum · 23/07/2009 15:05

DAL - my tutor at college said that liking children was a huge disadvantage for being a good teacher

seeker · 23/07/2009 15:28

It is ridiculous to say that a) the top 10% of a school are all "gifted" in a way that requires any treatment different to any other child. Or b) that these children all have social and emotional needs that are different from other children.

And I am still waiting for proof of the allegations against G and T coordinators flung about on this thread.

DadAtLarge · 23/07/2009 16:53

"DAL thinks that having special educational needs is a bad thing, and must mean that kids have learning difficulties, are physically or mentally disabled (see his earlier comments)"

What I provided was the legal definition according to the DCSF: Children who have a learning difficulty or physical disability. That's it! Are you not aware of what SEN is? It's a sad state of affairs that you couldn't be bothered to quickly check before commenting. It's hilarious when you attempt to twist my definition to discredit me: "mentally disabled" ... "thinks it's a bad thing"?!

You may believe you're good at your job. Your Head may think you're good at your job. I accept that many children may have benefited hugely from having you as a teacher. But, let's face it, this thread isn't a glowing tribute to the extent of your knowledge about G&T and SEN.

KembleTwins · 23/07/2009 16:59

Maybe not. But there's more to teaching than that...

idunnop · 23/07/2009 17:14

I have nothing to add to the G&T debate, but DAL, what a way to talk (down) to KembleTwins! at accusing her of lying on certain points she made based on her own experience at schools that you know absolutely nothing of.

KembleTwins, if I were you I would just step away from this thread as nothing you say is going to get through. You've made yourself more than clear, and shouldn't have to keep defending your position.

KembleTwins · 23/07/2009 17:40

Thanks idunnop. I shall take your very sensible advice!

fembear · 23/07/2009 18:17

Here is the DFES pamphlet which says, as DAL quoted, that "the term 'special educational needs' has a legal definition. Children with special educational needs all have learning difficulties or disabilities that make it harder for them to learn than most children of the same age."

So why is G&T dealt with within SEN?

Ponders · 23/07/2009 18:55

Perhaps because the framework for dealing with children whose abilities lie outside the "norm" already exists, & it makes sense to use procedures already in place rather than wasting limited resources setting up a whole new dept?

fembear, you & DAL are both being embarrassingly aggressive & personal over this. Why?

DadAtLarge · 23/07/2009 19:31

fembear is aggresive? LOL

idunnop, I agree that I've been rough on KT. The OP is looking for opinions on whether it's better to have her Y6 DS do KS3 work or be stretched sideways. KT's first two posts recommend not having him work with older kids and not having him do KS3 work while still in Y6 i.e. he shouldn't "advance". Her top recommendation seems to be to have him read a bit more.

And that's fine as an opinion. But she goes on to provide the grounds for her recommendation - you need to trust teachers - and she does this, ironically, in the same post where she states teachers will know the OP's DS is G&T because "he'll be on the SEN register".

Whatever you feels about my rudeness, my arrogance or my habit of calling a spade a spade, my advice to the OP remains: You can't assume that the teacher knows anything about G&T. You can't assume that the teacher is not biased against G&T children. You can't assume that teacher even knows how to cater for your G&T child. Take matters in your own hand, read up on G&T and theory on the teaching of more intelligent children, make informed decisions, discover what you can and can't expect/ask for and do what's best for your child.

But do bear in mind also that there are some very good teachers out there who do know how to cater for your DS and will enjoy doing it. (They won't be the ones who fob you off with an option that has him treading water for a year while the others catch up.)

Ponders · 23/07/2009 19:47

"By fembear on Wed 22-Jul-09 23:45:34
I am at Kemble.
How can you have the nerve to say that you are fully au fait with G&T and then spout on about NAGTY which announced in 2006 that it would finish in 2007!?
That rather blows your credibility."

Not at all aggressive, oh no.

fembear · 23/07/2009 20:51

Not aggressive. Outraged. She's set herself up as an authority on the subject but then lets slip that her knowledge is very out of date.

I think that DAL and I come from the same position: we are hacked off with teachers telling us that all is well in the world of G&T education when we know from our experience (and that of many others who post on these boards) that it is not so.

Ponders · 23/07/2009 21:11

Where did she set herself up as an authority? As far as I can see she has just told you her own experiences as a teacher with G&T children.

Presumably the fact that the majority of state school teachers do the best they can with the time & resources available to them, & devote a hell of a lot more hours to the job than just the 9-3.30 Mon-Fri most people seem to be under the impression that they work, is irrelevant to you & DAL as their best isn't nearly good enough for you?

If you feel that your G&T kids are not being adequately served by the state system then IMO you should be looking elsewhere for the enhanced & advanced education you apparently feel they are entitled to, because the state system is clearly over-stretched as it is.

Disclaimer - I am not a teacher, I have merely seen 4 of my own fairly bright kids through the state system over the last 24 years, & have found the majority of the teachers I have encountered to be incredibly dedicated & hard-working & deserving of far more praise & recognition than you 2 are prepared to acknowledge

Flip

1 2 3 4