DS1 is going to be 'stretched sideways' next year apparently

[gingertoo]

I'll give you a tiny bit of background.
Ds1 is 10 yrs old and has just finished Year 5 and is identified as G&T.
In May of Year 5 he sat Yr 6 SATs papers and got Level 5 across the board.
During Yr 5 he has been working with Year 6 to extend and challenge him.
At parents evening I talked to his teacher about how she was proposing to work with him in Year 6 (when there will be no older year groups for him to go and work with) She said that she had decided to 'stretch him sideways' rather than starting on KS3 work with him.
Unfortunately, we were only able to have a 10 min slot at parents evening but the teacher said she is happy to meet with us in Sept to discuss this further which is great, but I suppose before then I would like to have an idea about what this 'stretching sideways' involves and whether it is a good idea or not?!

So I suppose I'm asking whether anyone is a teacher or has had Dcs in this position at the start of Yr 6. Do you 'stretch sideways' or crack on with the KS3 curriculum? Which is better?

What do you think?

LOL. When I find out, I'll let you know!
I just keep nagging referring to it and hope that it will sink in one day - it's the same as teaching manners.

Kemble - yes I agree children should not be pushed ahead into higher years. A very wise headmistress told us that DS1 should not be put up a year and we agree. It is a case of catering for him within his own class by streaming or by giving him more stretch.

There is no problem with reading and English and most subjects because children can self calibrate at that. They just write more/better stories, essays poems. They read more complex books etc.

However, maths is really the problem area because each phase of learning builds on the previous knowledge built in the previous phase - as you know better than I do.

At the moment DS1 is 2 years ahead of his class in maths and is basically sat there 15 minutes doing nothing in some lessons or just getting bored churning through problem after problem on the same topic. Hhas been doing things in Yr 4 he was douing at his previous school in Yr2. Some children in his class are struggling though so the teacher cannot just go quicker for DS1 and forget everyone else.

The school have repsonded to our concerns and will put him with Yr 6 for maths next year but not sure what they will do when he actually is in Yr 6.

That means that every teacher has easy access to information ...and whether they are on the SEN register (obviously this includes G&T, which is seen as a special educational need)

Obvious? Not to me. This comes as a complete surprise. When did G&T become a SEN? And when did G&T children start getting put on the SEN register?

My experience has been that most teachers know somewhere between very little and absolutely nothing about G&T. And I'll take that back if there's some new development about G&T children on the SEN register that I've somehow missed.

approximately 30 kids each week during an academic year. That adds up to 180

Teachers still teach them 30 at a time. You offered 180 as a reason why you couldn't/wouldn't cater for a child in a class who's a year ahead of his peers. If you've got all this access to information on individual students and you're teaching them 30 at a time how come you still can't cater for a difference in ability in the class as little as a few months/a year? I'll tell you what: if a new kid joined the class who was two years behind everybody else, teachers would suddenly find that they can indeed cope with that kind of difference in ability ;)

therefore there is no reason to assume that a gifted child's needs will not be taken into account.

Why then do we have so many parents here pulling their hair out at the work the school is giving their DC? And if we're talking "really" gifted/very exceptionally able children, the average teacher just doesn't have a clue. They've not attended a single seminar or read even an abbreviated version of a single paper on catering for these children. So these children either end up going to a private school or being taught by teachers who don't know how to cater for their special needs (and often resent having to deal with them at all).

Surely even in maths there are lots of things you can do that does not encroach on the next stage of the curriculum? When dd was in top set in Yr 6, the teacher gave them a wonderful booklet with problem solving: great fun and definitely sideways rather than next KS. I recently bought a book that takes in all sorts of different mathematical theories and problems that aren't covered by the curriculum but should still be within the scope of a very bright 10yo. There is so much in maths!

It doesn't have to be a cop-out.

DadAtLarge - you are clearly a real teacher hater, which makes you part of the problem. What hope do teachers have if parents like you are so quick to assume that ALL teachers know nothing about things like this? I can only talk about myself, as a teacher, and other teachers I have managed, and I can assure you that all students in my lessons are catered for. But then, I only teach Drama, which, with your maths genius child, I would imagine you consider a Micky Mouse subject. I have come across a great many gifted children, and my lesson plans always take into account the needs of every child I will be encountering for that lesson. Oh, and G&T has been dealt with as part of SEN in all the schools I've taught in. You seem to have a very negative view of whatever you consider "SEN" to be, but it simply means Special Educational Needs, and does not, in itself mean that a child has difficulties - that would be an SLD, rather than SEN in itself.
By the way, on a more helpful note, since you are the parent of such gifted children, are you aware of the work of the National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth? It's based at Warwick University, and since the school system is failing you so dismally, you might want to check out how it can help. Or would that be too positive an intervention? Perhaps you would prefer to moan and whinge about the chronic failures of the education system. One that your kids are part of, I assume.

Oh, and G&T has been dealt with as part of SEN in all the schools I've taught in
No, it hasn't. One school may have got it wrong. But it would be too much of a coincidence for multiple schools to have made the same mistake. Logically, exceptionally gifted children (not G&T) should be treated as SEN but they are not. SEN is purely for children with learning difficulties or physical disabilities. That's it. And even for children who do have one or both qualifiers it's very difficult to get them a statement. It would be a cold day in hell before a child got an SEN statement purely for being gifted. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just explaining how it works to you.

You seem to have a very negative view of whatever you consider "SEN" to be
What? Because I corrected your misinformed opinion that G&T isn't part of SEN?

For your information there is a great deal of overlap with SEN children and gifted children. Many children who are defined by their SEN are highly gifted and many (not all!) gifted children have a range of SENs.

I'd rather my son was crazy about Drama than Maths. It's very difficult catering for his constant maths questions and demands for stimulation. No, I don't push him. No, he didn't get that way because I gave him special tutoring. And, no, I don't expect you to believe any of that.

National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth
Oh boy! NAGTY closed in 2007 when Warwick decided not to renew.

What hope do teachers have if parents like you are so quick to assume that ALL teachers know nothing about things like this?
Most teachers, including you, know next to nothing about G&T. That's a fact.

I don't hate teachers but I have argued here before that many need to RTFM because, when it comes to G&T, most are really clueless. That opinion of mine hasn't changed.

a bit puzzled by this exchange:

DadAtLarge Wed 22-Jul-09 08:55:33 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"Firstly english is self limiting, you can make it as difficult or as easy as you want.

and maths can always do with a little practise!"

Great ideas for keeping them busy while the rest of the class is learning."

How on earth can the child who is pushing himself to find better and better metaphors during creative writing not be said to be learning? Surely the point of English at least is that you learn more from an exercise the more gifted you are? Isn't that the great thing about being gifted- that you see more possibilities?

OK, DAL, fair enough. I didn't realise that NAGTY had closed, as I have been busy giving birth to twins. I do think you're wrong, and arrogant, and rude, though, to assume that ALL teachers know NOTHING about G&T. You are dealing with YOUR child in ONE school. I presume you haven't tried your DC in lots and lots of schools and found them all lacking. And G&T HAS been dealt with as part of SEN in the schools I've taught in. You can't correct me on that as you have no idea where I have taught.
Anyway, I'm bored of you now. You are not helpful. I hope to god I never have to teach your child. But then, I'm not a maths teacher, so I probably wouldn't see you.
If it's all so bloody awful, why don't you teach your poor kids yourself, or put them in the private system.

There is a huge difference between very clever children - (like the OPs, and like my Level 4 in year 3 ds) and truly gifted children, like DAL's child seems to be. Most schools have a few like the OP's ds and mine - most teachers will only deal with one or two like DAL's child in a career.

I have complete confidence that the average school could deal appropriately, by extension and sideways stretching with people like my ds. I am less sure about people like DAL's ds. Simply because of their rarity. it is not reasonable to expect a school to have provisions in place for a once or twice in a teaching career event. Such children would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

cory, there's a limit to how much a child can learn on their own stuck in the corner with a book. In your many posts asserting that children are learning just fine on their own you seem to ignore the maths issue. I appreciate that in your particular case your DD is fine with being left to work on her own, literacy may lend itself better to self-teaching.

KembleTwins, you may have been on maternity leave for two years but even if you go back 2+ years G&T wasn't part of SEN. AFAIK, it never was. Am I rude? Yes. Are you really badly misinformed on G&T? Yes. And, from numerous discussions here and elsewhere, it's plain that you're not alone. A lot of teachers are exactly where you are (whether or not they've been on maternity leave).

ALL teachers know NOTHING about G&T
Calm down, you're getting hysterical, move your kids to another room. I said most teachers, not ALL. And I said they know little to nothing about G&T, not NOTHING.

My own DS is now sorted, there's a thread around somewhere about that. I'm working with the G&T coordinator of the school to bring her up to scratch, we've got an Individual Education Plan agreed with the school and there's been other progress. But teachers like you are failing thousands of children across the country because you just can't be bothered to do the job properly. However hard you may be working to do the best for the children in your class - and I'm not doubting your good intentions - you're failing the G&T ones if you don't know what your job requires you to do for/with them.

The thing is DAL (oh god, I'd decided I was going to stop) I am not failing the kids I teach becuase I teach Drama, not Maths, and the kids who are identified as G&T in my subject get all the specialist care they need. It's really unfair of you to say that I am not bothering to do my job properly. I understand that you have had a tough time getting the provision you need for your DS, but that doesn't mean that MOST teachers are rubbish at what they do. FYI, in the school I taught in before I went on maternity leave, the Head was in the process of developing an IEP for EVERY child in the school. I truly believe this is the way to go, and that, if all schools did this (I think the government Every Child Matters intiative is heading towards this) then every child will be catered for. Attitudes like yours don't help though - teaching is a difficult enough job without parents assuming that teachers are uneducated, misinformed layabouts who only do it for the holidays.

seeker, I hear what you're saying. DS isn't a genius and I don't accept that he's a "one or two" in a career type of case. I know at least two kids who're better at Maths than he is... and I'm not a teacher.

What's sad is that most of these kids don't get "discovered". They're treated as "just a bit bright" partly because recognising their ability creates numerous "problems" and partly because teachers haven't had appropriate training in identification. In Maths, for example, it's a bit easier to spot exceptional ability and it still gets missed (in my DS's case for a whole three years despite us pointing out to teachers some of the stuff he'd done at home!). In other subjects it's a bit more difficult to spot.

It's really unfair of you to say that I am not bothering to do my job properly
KembleTwins, have you read your school's policy on G&T? If you don't know what you should be doing it doesn't matter how well or with what diligence you discharge what you think you should be doing. For example, you're giving the children specialist care but if you're unaware of the G&T register you'll fail to put a G&T child on it. That child won't then appear in the census and won't be listed at LA level as on the G&T program. S/he may therefore miss out on some big opportunities.

As Head of Department, it's my job to identify the G&T kids in term of how they perform in my subject. Remember, I'm talking secondary education - kids see different teachers for different subjects and, certainly in a subject like mine, can stand out as G&T even though they're not considered so in more academic subjects (I guess that's the "T" side of it), so yes, I do know what I'm doing, and if this was an appropriate place to do so, I could entertain you for hours with tales of the wonderful things they have been able to do as a result of that.

it's my job to identify the G&T kids in term of how they perform in my subject
Tell us, how do you identify them?

DadAtLarge Wed 22-Jul-09 22:22:58 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"cory, there's a limit to how much a child can learn on their own stuck in the corner with a book. In your many posts asserting that children are learning just fine on their own you seem to ignore the maths issue. I appreciate that in your particular case your DD is fine with being left to work on her own, literacy may lend itself better to self-teaching."

Where did you read anything about sitting in a corner with a book in any of my posts tonight. I was talking about

a) creative writing, i.e. about writing tasks given out to the whole class, but where individual pupils choose how much they want to put into a task. What on earth has that got to do with being stuck in a corner with a book? In my experience a lot of English is about writing essays, poetry, stories etc. So for this part of the course, there are not limits- you could write like Wordsworth if you had the talent. There is no need to finish a creative writing task early: you can go on making it more and more perfect.

and b)about maths and the possibilities of stretching sideways there; about how much dd's maths teacher had done to stimulate his top set by getting them into problem solving and other areas which are not normally part of the curriculum. This has nothing to do with gifted children being shoved to one side- far from it!

Tonight I am not talking about reading a book on one's own: I am talking about getting the most out of the work set by the teacher. And about how a good teacher can set work for more advanced pupils; it's not rocket science. Of course, not all teachers are equally good at this sort of thing. But some are.

Do please remember that I teach secondary, and. tbh, in Drama, it's fairly straightforward. Get off your bloody high horse, will you. Either that or get a job as Ed Balls's G&T advisor.

I think you're wasting your breath, KT

DAL, "if you're unaware of the G&T register you'll fail to put a G&T child on it. That child won't then appear in the census and won't be listed at LA level as on the G&T program. S/he may therefore miss out on some big opportunities."

Please explain how that works.

dat at large that is nonsense that teachers know nothing about G and t kids, ther eis ENDLESS training on it.

and lord HOPE your kid isnt as irritating as you although I presume he is

If it's fairly straightforward, then presumably, you have some criteria and a cut-off point. Or don't you?

I'm very eager to hear about this G&T census & the big opportunities the LA provides for the children on the G&T program.

snore DAL, you are boring. And starting to show your ignorance. So I'd shut up now, if I were you. When your kids get to secondary school, let me know, and I'll gladly discuss with you whether they show any talent in Drama.

Got to jump in here and give KembleTwins a hearty pat on the back!

DadatLarge, I am a primary teacher with a very clear knowledge of our G&T policy. Like in all good schools our policy was created as a shared document by staff under the guidance of our leadership team, approved by all stakeholders in the school community and available to any parent who wishes to read it. In all the schools I have worked in this is the case.
It is also the case that we delight in pupils that are G&T, we celebrate their achievements in many ways and encourage them in anyway we can - usually through an Individual Education Plan that is shared with and agreed by parents.
I cannot begin to tell you how your statement about treating pupils as 'just a bit bright' because it makes life easier; infuriates me! Just a bit bright is a horrible term in itself. Like I said teachers delight in and look for G&T pupils - not only because they can mean so much to the school but because it gives you a chance to move your teaching away from crowd control for a change!
I can only deduce that you must have had a very bad experience in school and that your anti-establishment outlook is not transmitted to your DS.

it's fairly straightforward.
Ah, seat of the pants!

MammaK, there are schools like yours. I respect them and I applaud them. But have a read through the threads here. There are lots of schools that pay G&T just lip service. National stats on how the G&T program is being applied are dismal. The government's own review of G&T is scathing.

I'd just like to add that I am a secondary teacher (though not currently teaching due to physically disabled dd2) and again, in every school I have taught in or trained in (let me count) - thats 9 - the G&T children were dealt with under SEN. When I started training 15 years ago, there was a local scheme called "Every Child Is Special" which incorporated G&T into SEN, and everywhere I have worked did the same - as a Principal Teacher (Head of Dept in England - I'm in Scotland) I had to identify and provide work for G&T children in Geography - a real challenge, and great fun!