Specialist 'Gifted' schools...do they exist?

[sleepingcat]

Having read a few US forums it would seem that the Americans have schools specifically for their gifted kids. Entry tends to be by either assessment or IQ testing.

Do such schools exist in the UK? I assume that Grammar schools are the closest thing we can get to a 'gifted' school, but what about at primary level?

Some schools in the UK seem to be members of the NAGC but that just seems to involve paying a yearly membership and using the NAGC logo on their websites!

Are there any schools (private or state) in the UK which specialise in teaching gifted kids at primary level?

There was a whole thread on here a while ago about Piffle's son and his excellent maths. I can't remember the full thread but he amazed the Profs at Cambridge...very clever chappy.

BoffinMum

I am very interested in what you say about Cambridge not admitting under 18s. I thought current policy was that unis were not supposed to discriminate on the basis of age but that in practice relatively few under 18s were offered places (and most of those were 17).

We can admit who we like. But there are major issues with admitting under-18s as undergraduates, as the level of pastoral care required would be well in excess if what we could offer, given present structures. Ofsted would probably be an issue for us as well.

However there's nothing to stop under-18s attending Cambridge University Continuing Education courses at Madingley Hall if they like.

thanks.
there seem to be some big discrepancies between how different unis interpret the relevant regulations.

"On a different note, I think we need to lose the word 'stretched' one and for all, even though it is popular amongst G&T parents and organisations. Highly intelligent children have a range of needs including social and emotional, as various people have pointed out on this thread. I would say that highly intelligent children need to be 'accommodated' or 'provided for', rather than 'stretched'. Why should they be stretched? I think many highly intelligent people just like to have the freedom to feed their brains as they see fit, and to be encouraged to follow their intellectual leanings and instincts. It's not a gymnastic exercise, schooling the G&T and I am not sure the metaphor works at all. "

Excellent point, BoffinMum. Stretching has connotations of pushing children hard. Mention stretching and many teachers' defences immediately go up. I like "accommodated".

piscesmoon, we've got a lot of teachers, Heads and deputy Heads in our family and friends circle. But one doesn't even need that - just the posts from teachers here gives away a lot. The point I was making above was one of lip service. KembleTwins accepts that some kids can be gifted and in the same breath suspects that I hot housed DS. Joke? Sure. It's hilarious. How many G&T coordinators take the pay for supporting the program in public, make all the right noises in public, but work behind the scenes to keep gifted children down. "Don't put them on the register, it'll mean more work!" "Don't let them get too far ahead, you'll make life difficult for Mrs Jones next year!" etc. OFSTED doesn't record which ones are two faced but it does record who's playing ball and in this game more G&T coordinators are in the stands than on the field.

Well Boffin mum there is currently a drive to recruit maths students who will be an asset to academia rather than working in the city
These are the outside the box thinkers apparently
I'm pretty thick therefore only go on what the people who phoned me and wrote to me said. It has all been done through his school too.
Because he thought of this particular thing he has been told he has a place, one presumes he still has to get the requisite a* business as I guess if he bottomed out spectacularly he'd find it withdrawn.

However it is a redundant point as he won't be taking it up as being gifted at every subject he prefers chemistry over maths....

user name taken, thank you yes that thread!
He has since done it again - something to do with nets of nets of tessaracts

And we'd never have accepted him going to uni early or even being put up a year at school. I've never seen the point of accelerating his learning as where would it take him?
He has great group of friends, a new girlfriend, is really happy.
As it should be at his tender age of 15.

"Highly intelligent children have a range of needs including social and emotional"

No. CHILDREN have a range of needs including social and emotional......

"How many G&T coordinators take the pay for supporting the program in public, make all the right noises in public, but work behind the scenes to keep gifted children down. "Don't put them on the register, it'll mean more work!"

I don't know, DAL - how many are doing that?? I would suspect very few indeed.

"something to do with nets of nets of tessaracts"...all I hear is yadda yadda! My maths is um... basic!

Congratulations to your son...and to you for bringing him up in such a well rounded way, he sounds a great boy.

the fact is the system here is not designed to fast track the more stellar academically able children through.
the same reason they cannot offer level 6 until yr7
despite kids being on 5a for years in Maths.

What would work as a solution does anyone have any thoughts?

Because it can genuinely be immensely frustrating keeping a gifted child happy within even a good primary/secondary school system.

I really don't know what the right answer is Piffle. There are definitely children not served well by the existing system, but there are pitfalls with most generic solutions.

It should be possible to set up some sort of mentoring scheme for the very, very able though where they could be set challenges by e-mail to be completed in a week/fortnight/month (depending on age & challenge type) and could be done at school in classes of the same/similar subject instead of the work that was going on there for as many or as few lessons per week as was deemed appropriate (again on an individual basis). The (remote) mentor would mark & provide feedback & help & hints if stuck. There could be a national databank of challenges covering a wide range of subjects/topics though possibly this is more suited to subjects like maths & programming, I'm not sure. It would cost money to set up and run, but presumably not huge amounts as the numbers needing it would be small so not that many tutors would be needed nationally (remote mentors might not even be needed where a school had a knowledgeable enough member of staff, but should be available for when they haven't).

I'm basing this idea on the UKMT mentoring, but that's just for maths at secondary age - I don't see why something similar couldn't cover primary too & a wider range of subjects.

In some areas of Canada they have had imoressive levels of success running enrichment programmes for self-selected groups of children on Saturday mornings. In other words, you don't have to necessarily be a maths whizz to go along, and you just attend if you think you'll enjoy it, rather like the way many children engage in sporting or musical extra curricular activities.

The idea of disseminating intellectual interests widely like this is a very exciting possibility for the UK and I think worth some consideration.

This is a great enrichment site for maths

Definitely Boffinmum - the bright kids will self select to a large degree & you immediately lose the elitist associations.

But... something like that won't really work for the incredibly bright and rather rare kids.

Piffle, I wish them good luck with the drive to recruit more maths grads. The shortage really is a problem. I'm not a maths expert but I've had to learn a lot of maths recently to keep up with DS (and have a huge list of resources like the excellent nrich). I'm now volunteering at DS's school to supplement their maths efforts. Perhaps schools should attempt to involve parents more. From maths clubs to devising interesting maths problems/puzzles for classes, maybe they can still tap into all that talent that "leaked away" into the city.

What would work as a solution does anyone have any thoughts?
Piffle, the G&T program was put in place for just that - to identify and cater for the brightest pupils. But it encounters huge opposition from teachers who see it as elitist, as taking resources away from SEN, as pressurising children, as "labelling"... I believe that teacher education should be targeted first. Hardly anyone takes up the PD opportunities in G&T because of all the negative PR about giving "rich kids" more advantage. They need to be better able to identify giftedness, it's trickier in some subjects that in others. And it's trickier to identify in some children than in others e.g children from "disadvantaged" backgrounds who may not have had the parental encouragement. If the DCSF gets teachers onboard then maybe all the resources they've put online for teachers would actually get used. (The G&T coordinator in DS's school had never been to their site! I thought it was a one off but I've now met two other coords who've never, ever been there and there are HUGE amount of resources there for them). I believe that this is where they efforts should start - in using existing resources.

Mentoring is good too. Challenges and competition provide excellent encouragement. We should also be more willing to recognise achievement within the group/s and praise/reward it without cringing in fear at the negative effect it may have on those who haven't achieved. If it's done remotely via the Internet then league tables of who scored what should be published online. (There's no harm in gifted kids realising that there are people out there smarter than they are. Use avatars if privacy is a concern). There should be space for both individual and group based competitions. Boys in particular would lap this up.

'How many G&T coordinators take the pay for supporting the program in public, make all the right noises in public, but work behind the scenes to keep gifted children down. "Don't put them on the register, it'll mean more work!" "Don't let them get too far ahead, you'll make life difficult for Mrs Jones next year!" etc. '

I fail to recognise this - it just doesn't happen in the school that I teach in. I have never, ever heard of not letting a DC get too far ahead.

Sorry-should have been schools-not school. I also have a friend who is G&T advisor for her LEA and she works very hard with schools. I think it is insulting to write them off as paying lip service only. Why on earth would anyone want to hold back a DC? A really intelligent, original DC with lots of imagination and drive is a joy to teach. I don't know why people think that teachers want rows of compliant DCs who don't think for themselves and churn out average work-they would be bored out of their minds!

piscesmoon, your friend may work very hard as a G&T advisor. And she's not alone. There are some excellent ones around.

I'm sure it's a joy to teach a really intelligent child. But the practical realities are that you're trying to teach him/her in a class of up to 29 other kids who have vastly varying levels of ability. Children's ability varies over time, they rise both in absolute terms and relative to their peers. But even when you take that into account there's a lot of evening out in that class. It's just the way things are. The wider the range of abilities in a class the more the evening out that happens. And I don't blame teachers for that, wide ranges are more difficult to cater for.

My wife taught for a while, my sister-in-law is a Dep Head, my aunt is a Head, we have other teachers in the family and in the friends circle. Yes, Christmas parties are a blast because teachers love talking shop. I know about more politics in local schools than I care to remember. I also know a lot about how many local schools approach G&T and even what happens at G&T conferences.

Excluding all of those conversations, and on a more concerning note, my DS's teacher last year told me in confidence how she struggled to get DS on the G&T. She finally managed to do it in a surreptious way. She showed his work to the external SATS moderator as an example of Level 3 in her Y2 class. The moderator said immediately that he was a Level 5 and felt so strongly about it she had a word with the G&T coord and he finally got put on the register. The coordinator later had a go at the teacher: "Why did you have to show X's work. Why didn't you pick some other Level 3 kid? Do you like giving us all extra work?" (We've now reached some agreements with the school and hopefully they'll start giving him something less boring than writing out his five times tables)

My wife got regularly chided for teaching children more than they needed to learn for the year precisely because it would make things more difficult for the next teacher The school she worked in was in a "deprived" area as well!

It's not just local. National stats and reviews are scathing on how schools are failing their brightest pupils.

It may not happen in your school but it does happen. A lot.

I will believe it when I see it, but until then I am not convinced.
I think that the primary age is far too young to separate DCs according to ability.

I don't count my dd as G & T, just following your thread out of interest.

I googled to see what they do about this in Germany. There is a parent's organisation for what they call hochbegabt (highly gifted) dc. Entrance is via an IQ test. This organisation worked very hard to make arrangements for their dc to be moved beyond the regular curriculum. What they have managed so far is for about 6 bog standard primary schools (some in very deprived areas) to have special highly gifted programmes in the afternoons. Dc from surrounding ages can go there (even be released from their own school programme for this).

The dc need a recommendation from their dc's school, sayingthe dc is considered highly gifted and recommending an area -maths, geography, science etc. The dp have to pay for an IQ test and with both these papers can then apply for their dc to attend these afternoon programmes.

They also offer summer camps which are held at a state boarding school for a reasonable fee. This year I see they are doing Archimedes, weather stations, various other things, they enrol for what they want to do. The courses are taught by university lecturers as are the afternoon programmes for the highly gifted.

I have no idea if it works well. I do think if you insist on a recommendation and an IQ test, you can sift out a little those dc who are being simply pushed from home from those who have an inbuilt ability way beyond the norm.

Maybe those dp whose dc are unhappy in the system need to push for more. I don't think the regular schools within their regular school-day, whilst administering the curriculum will/can provide what you want.

sorry when I say 6 primaries, that is in Berlin alone and of course secondaries have the same set-up

DAL - the plural of anecdote is not data.

I've been thinking about all of this overnight and one thought came to me. Perhaps we have to face the fact that some kids are too clever for school, full stop. The answer for many of us has been to follow our own interests, for example when I got bored at school I worked on my piano a lot, learned a bit of Greek and Russian and spent hours improving my art (NB I was quite crap at art and still am but like doing it). I think the provision made for me was quite good, that is, good natured hustle into the library and/or music room, and the odd chat about what I was doing. I wonder if low key encouragement like this is what's needed rather than socially selective programmes ...?

I don't know boffin. Actually I don't even know why I am posting on this thread..

It sounds like some dp on here have dc who are very unhappy at school because the work is too easy, frustrating and limited. No doubt all these families do a lot outside of school to provide stimulation for their dc. The problem as I understood it is being in a limiting environment for many hours a day is perhaps not offset by what you do outside of school. Interesting that you found it ok as a dc

nrich is excellent within Millenium Maths project at Cambridge.

Ironically DS1 isn't interested as despite a seeming amazing gift for mathematics, he declares he does not actually like it much. Prob not what Cambridge wanted to hear but c'est la vie!

I think you have to separate the SEN for G+T and for SN, not that they are mutually exclusive as my 6yr old daughter is on IEP for SN and G+T. Another bitter irony is that she has been turned down for a statement because she is doing so well
I half expect they want to see her struggling and failing before they commit funds to her education.
I would pull her out and home ed her if this continue as her SN is mostly visual and I would receive support at home.
It does appear that any child not conforming to the national average is buggered as far as support goes though.
I'd love a solution that allowed languages/history to be accessed and learned by very able students, the younger kids are when they learn languages the better.

But there is a glass ceiling in the UK one presumes