Specialist 'Gifted' schools...do they exist?

[sleepingcat]

Having read a few US forums it would seem that the Americans have schools specifically for their gifted kids. Entry tends to be by either assessment or IQ testing.

Do such schools exist in the UK? I assume that Grammar schools are the closest thing we can get to a 'gifted' school, but what about at primary level?

Some schools in the UK seem to be members of the NAGC but that just seems to involve paying a yearly membership and using the NAGC logo on their websites!

Are there any schools (private or state) in the UK which specialise in teaching gifted kids at primary level?

I imagine the closest you will get in the UK would be the junior branches of the very academic private high schools.

I am in favour of selection, or at least full scale streaming, but not a primary level.

Having watched my own children, the greatest things school has to teach them (and they are only 4 and 6) are how to socialise with other children, how to listen to someone else's viewpoint and how to compromise. I have had particular difficulties teaching my son these things and he has benefited greatly from children with a variety of abilities (in all kinds of things) showing him about life. He would (IMHO) have benefited a lot less if he had been grouped with very bright children with less diverse abilities and talents.

DAL: can I just ask you to clarify, about the Level2c masses. Did you mean Level 2c in Yr2 or in Yr6 or...when?

I agree with GooseyLoosey - there's far more to school than achieving academically, and I find it very sad that so many parents want to label their DCs as "gifted" or "clever" or "exceptional" at such an early age. What's wrong with letting them enjoy learning for the sake of it? Surely a child who has a love of learning is going to do better than one who is pushed from an early age to achieve just so his/her parents can boast about it. I find it all quite vulgar.

It is perfectly possible for a school to be awarded specialist status in an academic field: our local secondary (now merged- different story) was a specialist language college. Other ones have specialist status in other subjects. What you cannot at present have is a general specialist status in Academic Subjects.

But then you can't gave general specialist status in Vocational Subjects either.

Two of the schools I've taught in have been given Business and Enterprise status, which seems to be what they give to schools who aren't any good at anything else

Kemble- to be fair to DadAtLarge, I don't at all think he is a pushy parent who is desperate to label his son: I think his son is genuinely unusual, in being exceptionally gifted (and I mean really exceptional) and possibly in having difficulties in motivating himself.

DAL, you do seem to know very little about secondary schools- surely in most secondaries there is streaming and you can study for early GCSEs, simply to fit more of them into your time at secondary.

When you warn against stretching sideways- are you aware of what an enormous advantage wider reading/knowledge is when you get to university interviews and later to actual university studies? As a uni teacher myself I can't see that having taken A-levels a year early would present any kind of advantage or make it at all easier to get on with any courses I have ever seen. Otoh a wide reading, maybe a couple of extra languages, and a familiarity with problem solving is absolutely invaluable. Being very good at an instrument confers advantages for courses that have nothing to do with music. There are online courses in Latin and Greek; again, that kind of thing has a usefulness that is way beyond the actual subject.

Dds school has Technology and Business status, but is actually not a bad school (far better than other local secondaries).

Litchick: "You are wrong"
Fair enough. And, for the record, I like kids.

GooseyLoosey, why do you think that learning how to socialise, how to listen to other's viewpoints, how to compromise etc., are qualities he'd get less of if he most of his peers were bright? That they are bright surely has nothing to do with their range of abilities and talents. They'd come from different backgrounds, would be of both sexes, would have a variety of SENs...

seeker, you found my statement offensive. Please tell me why. Was it the lack of euphemisms? Because, come on, we do know that there are failing primaries, we do know that many children come out of them barely able to read.

lljkk, we're talking about 11 year olds.

"I find it very sad that so many parents want to label their DCs as "gifted" or "clever" or "exceptional" at such an early age. What's wrong with letting them enjoy learning for the sake of it? Surely a child who has a love of learning is going to do better than one who is pushed from an early age to achieve just so his/her parents can boast about it."
That brilliantly summarises the position of the teaching profession here when it comes to dealing with gifted children - the lack of acceptance that some children are just naturally gifted, particularly the ones who show exceptional ability in maths; that these children do what they do without parental pressure; that most of them need to learn at an accelerated rate (the accepted position by all the experts) and that holding them back to even them out severely damages them. No, if a child is gifted it must be because his parents pushed him.

One local comp has Maths and another has Science. The rest have Language, Business, Drama and Computing. Makes no odds - they are all oversubscribed and no-one to my knowledge makes a choice based on their 'specialism'.

Quite DAL
My ds1 is yr10
Been doing gcse maths since yr4
Go figure
Did a maths stats gcse in yr10
Doing higher tier maths and another freestanding maths qualification.
But up til yr10
Nothing additional
Yet he was offered a place at Cambridge in yr8
For some amazing pythagorean triple thingy theory he thought of.
Hands are tied as where do they go after doing a gcse early? Another language? They are not equipped for this, not even a good grammar.
There is a boy in yr7 who passed a privately sat maths gcse in yr5 and got an A*
He is still expected to do thecurriculum for another 5 years!
So doing them early creates other problems...

DAL - I accept that some children are gifted. What would be the point of denying it. I have taught many a gifted child, and have loved it. For me, discovering that a child is gifted, and has a passionate interest in the subject I teach is wonderful - it gives me the opportunity to teach to a higher level, to have discussions, and to bring that child along more, as his/her abilities allow. What I object to is the constant "My child is gifted, my child is gifted, my child is gifted" crap. Good. Well done. Your child is gifted. But why do kids need to be labelled when they are so young? And I am yet to find a child who tell his teachers "I am gifted" It's very nearly always the parents who do it.
Are you that Dad who was on the TV with his child genius children? The one who claims they have a "normal" life, but will be sittin their A Levels aged 10?

I was 'bundled in with the masses at primary level with the 2cs'. It was OK, but a bit boring, and eventually the school apparently ran out of work to give me. The Head spoke to my parents and suggested I be academically airlifted out by sitting a scholarship exam for an independent school. That opened my eyes, I can tell you - it could still be a bit boring and repetitive there sometimes, but we had a lot more to chew on intellectually, and I did like all the music, drama, languages and so on.

All that having been said, I am actually very pro comprehensive schooling, and I think if the maintained sector could applaud individual success a bit more it would serve all the kids well if handled properly. At the moment it seems everyone is allowed to be individual apart from the highly intelligent, who are supposed to fall into line somehow.

BTW Piffle, according to the rules, you can't attend Cambridge under the age of 18, so I can't see how your DC was offered a place in Year 8. We wouldn't even consider a UCAS application from someone that young - the youngest age possible would be 17 years old for deferred entry.

Is that rule still in pace Boffin? I know that was why Ruth Lawrence (& other maths prodigies) went to Oxford & not Cambridge (which is better for Maths), but thought they'd got rid of it lately.

Piffle was your ds at UKMT summer school just recently - wondering if he might have met up with ds? It's a small world, stranger things have happened.

By DadAtLarge on Wed 22-Jul-09 09:21:25

"So however high their academic apptitude you believe they should be taught in the same class as the really slow? One 11 year old capable at working at the average level of a 13 year old should be in the same class of 11s where all/most of the other children are capable of working only at the average level of an 8 year old?"

Er...My DS is, and I'm very happy with the situation, thankyou.

I accept that some children are gifted...Are you that Dad who was on the TV with his child genius children? The one who claims they have a "normal" life, but will be sittin their A Levels aged 10?
Oh, yes, I forgot, accepting that kids can be naturally gifted is just the public face of the teachers who then snigger in the staff room that the kid must have been hot-housed.

BoffinMum, you're right. Mention anywhere about a highly intelligent child needing to be stretched a bit more and suddenly you become like that dad on TV or the flood of parents in these forums who keep up a constant chorus of "my child is gifted, my child is gifted, my child is gifted".

KembleTwins, there are more posts moaning about these parents than there are parents on here with the "constant" refrain you so dislike.

I'm assuming Piffle's ds was told by a college maths fellow 'Yes you are brilliant, we will definitely keep a place open for you in 2012 [or whenever] when you are 18' rather than formally applying and being offered a place by the university. (assuming admissions at Cambridge are done by colleges as at Oxford).

DAL "...particularly the ones who show exceptional ability in maths; that these children do what they do without parental pressure; that most of them need to learn at an accelerated rate (the accepted position by all the experts) and that holding them back to even them out severely damages them."

This is so true. The rate at which these kids learn is amazing. It took 10mins to explain to DD (age 4) how to carry over tens when adding (e.g 456+456), yet she'll have to wait several years before covering this at school...and then they'll have to spend weeks on it.

For many gifted kids the whole asynchronous development can hold them back. They may be ready for Year 6 when age 6/year 2, but emotionally, socially and physically they still need that Year 2 classroom. A gifted school may help accommodate this more.

It's fabulous they are so good at maths. But what about everything else?

You have a very poor view of teachers DadatLarge-how many staff rooms have you been in? I go into lots and have never heard staff snigger about children. I agree that they may well snigger about parents but they bring it upon themselves!
Being good at maths doesn't mean you are good at all other subjects. The boy that I know who is exceptional at maths (yr 8 and A'level)goes to the normal comprehensive. His parents weren't keen on the grammar school; they weren't going to make any special provision as "all our boys are clever", so he went to the comprehensive and he gets very specialised treatment for maths but does other subjects with his age group.

Addressing the OP- sleepycat- there are music schools that take gifted children from 7. (It went 7-18) My db went to one. He was quite unhappy there though, but that was his personal circumstances, not everyone's experience. It wasn't state, but offered a large number of full scholarships to those who showed promise.

Being told by a random member of Cambridge staff that a place will be kept open does not mean a thing. Admissions processes work very differently, and applicants can only get places by going through the proper channels at the proper time. Many applicants are in the top 1% in terms of IQ nationally, and will be just as able as Piffle's DS. If colleagues have been suggesting places can be specially reserved for individuals ahead of time by informal means (rather than the usual 'please do apply if you like the idea of studying here', which is the official blanket response for absolutely anyone, and not just the top 1%) then I would like to know who it was, as I feel this issue should be raised formally within the institution.

On a different note, I think we need to lose the word 'stretched' one and for all, even though it is popular amongst G&T parents and organisations. Highly intelligent children have a range of needs including social and emotional, as various people have pointed out on this thread. I would say that highly intelligent children need to be 'accommodated' or 'provided for', rather than 'stretched'. Why should they be stretched? I think many highly intelligent people just like to have the freedom to feed their brains as they see fit, and to be encouraged to follow their intellectual leanings and instincts. It's not a gymnastic exercise, schooling the G&T and I am not sure the metaphor works at all.

It was just a guess Boffinmum - I don't know Piffle.
My experience of Oxbridge is that sometimes academics in certain colleges do break the rules - eg the Pembroke admissions scandal in 2002.
Would be interested to know the truth now though too!