Do the schools assess for this at primary level?

[SolidGoldBrass]

And if so, what happens? Is there something I should do before DS starts school?
He is 4, can read whole books, follow a tube map (and happily tell everyone how to get across town from specific start point to specific destination) count up to about 500, do simple arithmetic...

dadatlarge Most children are on the list for achieving within the top ten percent. My arguement has been all along that all the gifted and talented are not represented within this figure. Of course I am aware of the gifted and talented who do not achieve.

I'm just curious, given it's the top 10% in a class does this take any account of age differences....presumably in most classes there'll be a huge bias towards the September/ Oct kids because age masks the G&Tness (!) of some of the younger ones?

I did once Google this as the parent of 2 bright August children and discovered that of the children nominated by primary schools as Gifted and Talented around 12-ish% are September-borns and only 3.9% August-borns. Not gifted, then, just older than the rest.

I suppose it's just a label and overall it's probably better that a 'g and t' child is a summer born as they won't be quite as far ahead as they would be if they had e.g. a September birthday.

singersgirl, given an even distribution of birthdays across all months over 8-9% would be September born. So 12% is not far off.

In a sample year of 2004, 54,270 children were born in September and 45,574 were born in Feb.

A few extra months gives a slight advantage but not enough to make a very significant difference to G&T identification. However, schools can be given more information on adjusting for age.

"dadatlarge Most children are on the list for achieving within the top ten percent. My arguement has been all along ..."
Your argument has been all along - in multiple posts over several threads - that the G&T scheme should be stopped because of its target of 10% by achievement. I have consistently tried to disabuse you of that notion with gentle nudges and making bold my mentions of ability but you persisted with your claims. I'm glad you realise the facts now.

4%, in the scenario I described above, is the equivalent of the entire August cohort. So in that sense it is 'far off'. It means 3 times as many children, which is significant. If you plot the number of children identifed by schools as G&T against their age, there is a direct correlation between age in the cohort and likelihood of identification; it is a lovely diagonal line from the top (September) to the bottom (August).

Clearly in any individual year there will be variances. But when data is compiled from all primary schools and all year groups across England, those individual fluctuations become less important.

oh dadatlarge what are you like!

I have always stated "MOST" children are on the register as they achieve within the top percentage! It has been my arguement all along that this is not an accurate representation.

I stated thatthe g & T LABEL should be stopped because of this obsession! Some people think it is an exuse for priority treatment. It becomes elitist.

Ability is what it is all about but a lot don't achieve as they should, so ability doesn't always show through using conventional teaching methods and assessment.

I have never said that it should be stopped because of the ten percent achievement!

I said it is not an accurate measure, it is not a fair assessment and parents become obsessed with it!

You don't half change words to suit!!

I think there is a huge difference in development between Sept born kids and August kids within primary schools. Especially within the infants.

There is an advantage / disadvantage there also.

"I have always stated "MOST" children are on the register as they achieve within the top percentage! "
Oh, really? Where? You have always been very sure of yourself that ALL children on the register are there because of achievement.

Can you pick out one single statement of yours on this topic that suggests you knew that ability, not achievement is the basis?

Some of your quotes from around here:

"If your child is gifted or talented in a subject is it because you have spent time yourself teaching to your child."
Selection can only be on the basis of achievement?

"the top 10% of achievers are not square pegs in round holes...The assessment process isn't accurate"
Process?

I can pull out several others.

"I said it is not an accurate measure, it is not a fair assessment and parents become obsessed with it!"

lijaco, the only person who seems obsessed with anything is you

lijaco, a couple more:

"Gifted and Talented is a label to describe the top achievers not the gifted and talented."

"It isn't measured correctly you can't measure g &t the way that it is measured at the moment"

I can pick out more but I've got work to do now.

Let me repeat my disappointment that teachers are so ignorant about the G&T programme.

My Ds could read & count at 3 & the biggest problem we face with schools is that 2 local state schools told us they wouldn't really know what to do with him! We have been advised to go down the private route as he is so very far advanced. I would hate to think of him being bored & would like him to be challenged & not lose the advantages that he has now. To date it is all self taught & if he is not given approriate guidance at school he may get bored & then look to do naughty things for attention. Also I do not want him to feel special & different to his classmates. There seem to be plenty of very bright & advanced kids out there so I hope he can go to a school where he will be amongst similar children. I would speak to the school this term before he starts and make them aware of his abilities to gauge their reaction and to set your mind at rest.

Private is not necessarily a solution to the problem. We considered private as well but apart from the smaller class sizes there's no guarantee of better provision.

Reading and counting at three is something that a lot of children can do so it's strange that the schools said they wouldn't know what to do with him. Perhaps his abilities are higher than you mention here.

If he's very, very intelligent he will get bored. I 100% guarantee it. He will have to cope with some of the boredom but you'll have to be prepared to keep monitoring how the school is providing for him and giving them gentle nudges if you want to prevent boredom affecting behaviour and attitude to learning.

You can suss schools out by asking for their G&T policy and speaking with the G&T coordinator about how they cater for gifted children. You may be able to gauge whether they cater properly for gifted children ... or try to even them out to make life easier for teachers.

Some parents of gifted children home educate them and there's a section on mumsnet for HE.

We have found a private school that caters very well for G&T children - entry is by assessment & they teach in ability groups from very early on. I have nothing to compare my DS to only what others have said to me. His reading is age 7+ and his maths a year behind. He knew all Thomas & Friends engines & characters past & present by the time he was 3 by learning them from the back of the books. He has the ability to learn & comprehend information very quickly. At the moment he is learning countries and continents as he loves reading our World Atlas. He also loves drawing pictures & maps and writing and making up stories. And he just had the time of his life at Glastonbury, lapping up the attention he got with a cat face & his dancing & watching the entire Blur set from his buggy! I don't imagine he is much different to many 3 year olds I just want to make sure that his thirst for learning is encouraged and stimulated at school so he can be the best he can be!

I think it's a red herring label at infants age, especially when worked out as a percentage of the class.

Mine could read well before reception but still did the phonic work. At infant school, although obviously they are aiming for them to read and have started writing before they start juniors, it's also about learning to get on in class, following rules, navigating the playground, solving disputes with your friends etc. etc. At the end of infants, I think these were the most valuable skills mine learned!

They might give him extra worksheets if he finishes the ones he is given quickly or they might give him different problems to solve in maths and obviously, he should get challenging books but it might take them a while to find the right level for him.

A good teacher is worth her/his weight in gold rather than a label at this age I think.

SGB, i haven't read the whole thread, up to about p2.
however DD1 (now in reception) was reading fluently at age 3, could have very detailed intelligent conversations about topics and very expressive.
she started school last sept and within 2 days the teacher had called me in to ask who had taught her to read, when she could read from, when she started talking, any other clear skills etc. So i would definitely agree with the others to give the teachers a chance to identify him themselves.

Since Easter they take 6 (from 90 intake) out for special lessons once per week with the "G&T" teacher. In those lessons they discuss more abstract books, write about dreams etc.. DD loves the lesson. It is very low key and they haven't been "labelled" yet and parents told very little. Apparently there will be a meeting for the parents in the Autumn when they are in Y1.

I was also worried DD would be bored in reception but there is so much else going on, learning is really a tiny part of the day. At "carpet time" where the class do their letters DD and another boy sit and write their news book. She isn't made to sit through "a is for apple" etc.

By the way, in our school gifted = bright. talented = special skill, e.g. art/sport. G&T is barely used as a label.

btw DD1 is an end February birthday FWIW.
DD2 is an October birthday and as yet isn't showing the same ability as DD1 (nearly 4, just starting to recognise letters and some words). however she is a demon with the tennis racket

My dd is in Y5; her birthday is in August. She has been added to the G&T register for literacy at her new school. Apparently she is top in the whole school, so that includes Y6. She says she is not feeling stretched. What was the point of being on the register. She doesn't seem to do anything different from the other children.

I think the G&T register thing is entirely a pointless exercise, made-up in a hurry by a failing government in an effort to show they are doing something, without actually having to do anything.

Wow that's impressive Amaidawish. Is that a state primary or a private school?

I really hope ds doesn't spend a whole year having to do carpet time of a is for apple as he can read already but at the same time I don't want him to be labelled and made to feel different - sounds like your dd's school has got the balance just right.

I do wonder though, how many kids in a typical class of 30 starting reception can read sentences? I imagine there'd be a handful of them maybe? Just curious?

it is a state primary. very good one. I also think a large intake, 3 classes, has helped as the chance of there being other bright children increases. It's SW London where most people stay in the state system for primary even if they can afford not to as the state primaries are so good. I do feel they have the balance right atm. DD doesn't feel different yet isn't bored. i also think it is up to us as parents to make sure they are stretched and shown different things/books etc. If she finds school easy then great, what an advantage.

At the start of the year when the six were selected where were they at in literacy and numeracy?

Am curious.

I've been very disappointed with ds's nursery. I know things are meant to be low key and play based but they have done nothing with him at all. When they sussed he could read they promised they'd contact the early years co-ordinator for advice and get back to me and they never did. All I wanted was for them to spend maybe 5 mins a week reading with him but they didn't.So I'm looking for something better from school!

i think it was more general than that - literacy, numeracy and general knowledge/expression etc. However, when she started reception her writing was probably average. she hated writing (left handed) but now is always writing and very good.

was the nursery a childcare setting or part of the school? DD could read at nursery, they just let her read if she wanted to but didn't do anything specific. (i don't think there was any need).

oh and the six weren't selected until about february time, half way through the year. My understanding is the group is quite fluid and can change. As i've said they haven't told us anything, dd has told me and i've spoken informally to the teacher. most of my knowledge about it is from another mum who's son is in the class and who's elder son is at the school and has also been in the group for years.

I am a bit nervous of this G&T label - it means so much to so many different parents - but ultimately it is a very fluid measure. Top 10% in one school might not be any where near the top 10% in another. Independent schools don't run the programme.

I'd wait and see what happens SGB. DS was determined to hide his light under a bushel ("But what on earth's the point of finishing work quickly mummy, they just give you more work. So why would anyone bother?") but they unearthed it in the end.

?? whose ??

Personally i can see everyone's problem with the scheme and the label.
DD isn't "gifted", she isn't a genius. She is very bright and academic/logical.

However, i am pleased that once a week a group of like-minded children are brought together to do harder work. To do work that stretches them, that they don't necessarily find super-easy. These children become friends and support each other, push each other along. It's also a signal to the others in the class for something to aim at, rather than being geeky they get to go off and do interesting stuff.
I am state-educated at fairly decent schools but never had or was given massive aspirations. Only at university when i mixed with really bright people from good schools did i realise how much more there was to learn and began to share their aspirations.