Help! Meeting with Head to discuss how school is failing Gifted 7 yr old. What to say?

[DadAtLarge]

My child is six (and three quarters!) His teacher in reception recommended he be put on the G&T Register for Maths. It didn't happen. His teacher in Yr 1 requested he be put on. And again in Yr 2. It didn't happen. Or maybe they did but it doesn't seem to mean anything.

He just did the KS1 SATS in which he got Level 3As in everything. The external SATS coordinator told his teacher that he should be moved up to Level 4/5 work for Maths. We requested he be given the KS2 Maths SATS, the school administered it and he got a Level 5. I don't say this to boast but apart from his maths knowledge being on par with 11 yr olds he can do mental problems involving squaring or cubing double digits numbers or multiplying 3 digit numbers by other 3 digits numbers faster than any teacher in the school can do them on paper. He's a whiz with the Rubik's cube, Sudoku and stuff like that. He loves pondering conundrums involving infinity and playing around with irrational numbers like Pi.

And he is made to sit in with other Yr 2 kids laboriously adding 5 to itself again and again ...and other mind numbingly boring work. The teacher does try to give him "special" challenges but they are still far below what he can do. I don't believe the self-confessed Maths-phobic teacher is even up to the task (though she is lovely and does her best for him). He is BORED.

The school is an excellent state school with very high Ofsted results and SATS rankings but they are refusing to let him sit in with older kids in Yr 5 and Yr 6. They point blank refuse to accept that it's in his best interest to sit at least occasionally with any older children. Their policy on G&T doesn't give any guarantees - it's all about "we'll try" to match them by ability and "we'll endeavour" to challenge the more able and "it's our goal" to accelerate them through the curriculum.

I'm meeting with the Head. Any suggestion on what I can say or do to get them to provide for him in some way, shape or form that doesn't bore him to death and cause him to lose all interest or get disruptive?

I don't want him to become like those kids on TV taking their A levels at 8. He doesn't need recognition or tags or being made to feel special. But he's beginning to show signs - albeit very early ones - of being "superior", of can't-be-bothered, of rebelling against authority. Which is not him - he's always been a quiet, likeable chap and the teacher's pet in every year. I want to stop any downward behaviour spiral now. He does not complain much about doing lower level work in English but the 2+2 is making him very miserable.

Someone suggested elsewhere here that I can offer to be more closely involved in what work he is set in school. My wife and I don't want to appear pushy but we are more than happy to do this.

Any other suggestions on how I can get the school to DO something? Is he entitled to get teaching resources/work from secondary schools? Any ammunition you can give me for my meeting?

Sorry for such a long post.

Hmmm

Mathematics and Music are two special cases. It is in those two subjects that you get child prodigies. This is a really difficult area and you should seek advice from an educational psychologist with a background in giftedness.

They could assess your child for you.

By the way his theory about i is in my view not really rubbish: It takes us into the realm of Philosophy of mathematics, and the way in which Mathematics can be viewed as the manipulation of notation according to rules.

i is called an imaginary number because of the way it extends the number system beyond the reals. What he is really spotting is that the term imaginary is being used in a sense quite different from its ordinary use.

philosophy of maths... manipulation of notation...I'm sure that all means something but I'll have to take your word for it

It never occurred to contact a psychologist as that suggests we think he's some sort of prodigy but, I guess, there's no harm and it may give us some ideas.

The meeting with the head is in about a week. I'll report back on how it went.

snorkle, he needs to be a little older.

schools do very little to help children with dyslexia, ADHD, ADD etc too. It isnt just g & t.

lijaco - our personal experience is that there is a learning specialist on staff at dd's school whose sole purpose is to work with children with adhd, dyslexia and other learning issues. (I have no idea if she is effective, or if the parents of those children feel satisfied that the school is making an attempt to meet the needs of their children.)

There is no school specialist/additional staff for gifted children.

Earlybird, the fact that there is a senco (which is the norm) does not mean that the children with SN are actually getting what they need. Even if the senco is very good, the needs of a child with adhd or a learning disability is going to be enormously time consuming/expensive compared to the needs of a gifted child: if there is more than one child in the school with these issues, one senco on their own isn't going to be able to meet those. And they may well not be trained to do so. In fact, the senco is just somebody who sits in the office and coordinates resources. If there are no resources to coordinate, very little gets done.

We had a senco, but it still took years for my disabled dd to get full physical access to the school. And she doesn't even have a learning disability or behavioural issue: I imagine that must be much harder.

And if more money is ploughed into SN and G&T what abot the vast majoirty who will be happily average. Do they get buggar all?
State schools have had more money thrown at them in the last ten years than ever before.
Tax revenue is decreasing, the national debt is increasing, so expenditure cannot continue at this rate. I think what few resources there are must be spent on ensuring children who cannot accesss education can do so. SN must be our proirity no?

Litchick, political correctness has changed the meaning of SN. It's SEN and now refers to just those with some physical or leaning disabilities. Not very economically deprived, not disruptive lifestyles (e.g. gypsies) and not even all learning disabilities.

When resources are very limited there should be prioritising. Children most in need should be given extra resources. Any argument that only SEN kids have special needs is spurious, misinformed and unfair. The government recognises that. Your independent school recognises it too. Some geniuses - my DS isn't one - have very, very special needs.

But this thread wasn't to discuss the general merits of G&T provision. I needed help with a specific issue and many have been very kind. I'm open to any more suggestions and thoughts on topic.

"schools do very little to help children with dyslexia, ADHD, ADD etc too. It isnt just g & t. "
If the school isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing for these children I defend the right of their parents to take it up with the school. Just as I defend my right to do what's in my child's best interest.

I haven't mentioned this before but my wife is going to shortly be a full-time volunteer working with disadvantaged children.

I sympathise with any child who has special needs as a result of a disability but I also sympathise with my son's predicament and the problems it can lead to. It is my responsibility as a parent to ensure he gets whatever he's supposed to be getting under the current system and framework.

You've made it perfectly clear elsewhere on these boards that you associate exceptional academic ability in any subject with ... undue financial advantage. That's not a very astute observation for a teacher to make. And I'm not going to try to dumb my DS down just to balance what people like you see as a social injustice.

We're not rich but, as I've demonstrated, I'm perfectly happy to make financial sacrifices to get my DS what he needs.

Dadatlarge - what makes you think I'm a teacher?
I'm an author.

Litchick, I don't. The second post was in reply to lijaco Sorry if it wasn't clear.

I think it makes sense to look at each child's individual situation and what is causing them problems.

In the case of my dd, being gifted has never caused any problems so I would be well miffed if I found money was taken from the SEN budget to support her. Because I know how well that money is needed. It is not my duty as a parent to ask for money that we don't actually need.

But DadAtLarge has identified areas where his son's giftedness may well end up causing problems. And then I think it is his duty as a parent to pursue it.

Of course he may not get most of what he wants. Neither do parents of disabled children or children with learning difficulties. But at least he can liaise with the school about how best to support his son. I see no harm in that.

That's right, cory. I'm just looking to work with the school to achieve my very reasonable goals: preventing him getting so bored that he becomes disruptive, and not destroying his love for the subject. I don't believe that's too much to ask.

And what I want may not even involve spending more money! If external resources are required I've stated that I'm willing to hire a tutor. I'm sure there are some who see that as inherently unfair on other children like him whose parents can't afford it. That's not something I'm going to lose sleep over.

What sort of relationship do you have with the school in general?

Your ds is indeed very advanced and it may be that the school simlply don't know what to do. My ds is also very able in maths and around the same age, in Year 2. He has also thought about the whole imaginary number thing (helps that dh is an engineer and can therfore actually explain what practical use this might be!) and he can grasp very complex maths intuitively like the differences between 'countavle' infinity and 'uncountable' infinity.

I recently had a very productive meeting with his teacher who simply explained (very honestly) to me that they had no idea what to do. They had tried accelerating him, but found that they could not judge his level and he was getting everything,so they stopped. He is lucky to have several very bright children in his class, and work is differentiated for the whol group which does help. They sought advice from the regional G&T co-ordinator, which unfortunately did not produce any more in the way of good ideas than the school had already had. A friend who is a teacher told me that the majority of teachers would simply not know how to streatch a chlid like your ds, who has exceptional ability.

I must say, after this very frank discussion, I stopped worrying about school 'failing' my ds. They are trying, we have a good relationship which is going to be crucial as he gets older. I'm lucky in that he is a very laid back boy who is not disruptive if bored, just a bit dreamy. I try and think of ways to work with the school and keep them up to date with what he is himself thinking about. Dh is an engineer so can do some applied maths type things with him, but in general, we are trying to ensure he is stretched in other ways - learning the piano, puzzles, and attempting things he finds difficult (like riding a bike!)

Your ds is exceptional - lots of mathematically exceptional kids will naturally accelerate themselves. My ds likes the 'murderous maths' books for example. Moving him up a few years might solve this years problem, but won't solve it in a few years time,as others have said.

Do you feel you can work with the school? What about helping them to set up a science/engineering club that uses maths in practical ways. No other suggestions that have not already been mentioned

We have a very good relationship with the school, the Head and all the teachers he has had to date. So, hopefully, we can work together to achieve my two goals.

Your DS is lucky, Kammy, I wish I knew a lot of maths to help mine. Or to run a club.

I used to be "dreamy" in class but in later years dream time became plotting and mischief time. The fact that you're working with the school on this suggests you have it very well in hand and have nothing to worry on this count.

Maybe we should get our sons to meet up!

This thread has been useful in many ways. For starters I did believe that moving him up was the best option but I've changed my mind on that. And there have been numerous ideas and inputs here that will help me get the most out of the meeting and the implementation of whatever's agreed.

PS: Does your DH or someone you know run any such club involving practical applications of maths?

No, he doesn't....yet! I think the maths/science club thing is a great idea, particularly as many of the afterschool activities at our school appeal mainly to girls. I'm going to try and research it, so if anything interesting coems up, I'll post here - there are quite a few people with mathematically able children who post here.

Good luck for the meeting.

DadAtLarge, maths in motion is a fun maths club type activity that your ds would enjoy I think if you could persuade his shcool to run it.

Had the meeting with the Head. It went well.

Based on what I've learnt in this thread, I didn't ask for him to be moved up a year and focused on the end goal instead.

That the school hasn't been providing adequately for him in maths is more misinformation than malevolance. By their own admission they don't know what to do with him. I didn't dwell on what they've been doing wrong or what they could have done better. I kept the discussion on what can be done from now on.

They claim that they haven't come across someone so far advanced in maths. I find that incredible. I know DS is an intelligent chap but he's more top 1% than top 0.0001%. Anyway, they seem open, even eager, to learn how to deal with him.

I didn't have to use that line about if he were several years behind they'd be calling agencies in left, right and centre - they beat me to it!

There were other things discussed, all of which I can't remember but they did ask about and seem reassured that he did a lot of other normal boy stuff like playing football, swimming, cycling, Beavers etc.

We've reached some agreement.

Step 1: Understanding where he is now - areas of strengths/weaknesses. Involves use of external psychologist. School is happy to find one or have us suggest one

Step 2: Using that assessment to plan for his needs. An Individual Education Plan will be drawn up in consultation with us (and him).

Step 3: Working out what resources they can devote to his needs - they're happy to provide more than they are now - and which ones will be provided by us

Step 4: We'll be actively involved in the IEP and regular progress checks will be made and adjustments applied as necessary

Step 5: They will contact other schools in the area, find other children close to his ability within the "Cluster" and look at ways they can get them to work together (which beats him just being pushed up to yr5/6 to sit in on maths lessons).

Step 6: Outside school activities: We'll coordinate his outside-school maths work/clubs/competitions/anything else with the IEP and his teacher. I may end up running a club in the school if there are enough takers.

Now it's all in the implementation!

As the school is so open to learning how they can provide for him and children like him I've undertaken to put a portfolio of information together for them. It will include list of resources generally available - like nrich and murdeousmaths (neither of which they knew about), resources available specifically for schools, funding and grant opportunities, national competitions the school can sign up to (like maths in motion, thanks snorkle), expert advice on catering for children exceptionally gifted in maths etc.

It's been a good day. Your advice in here has been invaluable. I am deeply grateful.

Good news Dadatlarge!

sounds brilliant!

That sounds very promising - well done to you.

Ok the only two bits in my last post that matter are:-

What he is really spotting is that the term imaginary is being used in a sense quite different from its ordinary use.

and

Going to an ed psych.

The reason for going to an ed psych is to get an assessment as to exactly how advanced for his age, in maths he is. And also, as you suggest you might get some ideas.

I used the term "prodigy." I meant by this a child exceptionally advanced in some area for his age. "Age" is the important point. A child of 4 with the reading age of a 16 year old is really advanced BUT most such children when they get to, say 18 will just have the reading skills of an 18 year old. This is a reason why you have to manage the situation carefully. If a child thinks he is "special" because advanced for his age, its a terrible blow when he stops being special cos everyone else has caught up.

So he may be advanced in maths now but not be so later on and this should not be a problem.

"So he may be advanced in maths now but not be so later on and this should not be a problem. "
This is a bit I have trouble accepting.

The quantity of knowledge in maths over and above the average for his age may vary over time. However, there are some elements that should not change no matter what his age. If they change it's because he's hasn't been properly provided for, IMHO.

For example

• enthusiasm for the subject: He will develop other interests as he gets older, may become besotted with a particular type of music or sport. Nay, probably will. But if he comes to detest maths... then I have failed him.

• mental ability: He is capable of solving complex (for his age) problems mentally. If by 16 he's needs a calculator for 25% of 100 ... then I have failed him

• general ability: at 6 he can comfortably clear work designed for 11/12 year olds - and get an "A". At 16 if he's got the ability of an average 16 year old and is predicted a B or C for his GCSEs ... I have failed him.

He may not always be as advanced but my expectation is that throughout his education he should always be well above average in maths. Let's see what the psychologist says.

I'm confused by your post nlondon dad, once you can read, how much better can you get? With maths there is always room for improvement.

Glad to see the meeting went well with the school DadAtLarge.

Good meeting DadatLarge, and very much as I suspected.
Hopefully you will now be able to have a good, honest dialogue.