Help! Meeting with Head to discuss how school is failing Gifted 7 yr old. What to say?

[DadAtLarge]

My child is six (and three quarters!) His teacher in reception recommended he be put on the G&T Register for Maths. It didn't happen. His teacher in Yr 1 requested he be put on. And again in Yr 2. It didn't happen. Or maybe they did but it doesn't seem to mean anything.

He just did the KS1 SATS in which he got Level 3As in everything. The external SATS coordinator told his teacher that he should be moved up to Level 4/5 work for Maths. We requested he be given the KS2 Maths SATS, the school administered it and he got a Level 5. I don't say this to boast but apart from his maths knowledge being on par with 11 yr olds he can do mental problems involving squaring or cubing double digits numbers or multiplying 3 digit numbers by other 3 digits numbers faster than any teacher in the school can do them on paper. He's a whiz with the Rubik's cube, Sudoku and stuff like that. He loves pondering conundrums involving infinity and playing around with irrational numbers like Pi.

And he is made to sit in with other Yr 2 kids laboriously adding 5 to itself again and again ...and other mind numbingly boring work. The teacher does try to give him "special" challenges but they are still far below what he can do. I don't believe the self-confessed Maths-phobic teacher is even up to the task (though she is lovely and does her best for him). He is BORED.

The school is an excellent state school with very high Ofsted results and SATS rankings but they are refusing to let him sit in with older kids in Yr 5 and Yr 6. They point blank refuse to accept that it's in his best interest to sit at least occasionally with any older children. Their policy on G&T doesn't give any guarantees - it's all about "we'll try" to match them by ability and "we'll endeavour" to challenge the more able and "it's our goal" to accelerate them through the curriculum.

I'm meeting with the Head. Any suggestion on what I can say or do to get them to provide for him in some way, shape or form that doesn't bore him to death and cause him to lose all interest or get disruptive?

I don't want him to become like those kids on TV taking their A levels at 8. He doesn't need recognition or tags or being made to feel special. But he's beginning to show signs - albeit very early ones - of being "superior", of can't-be-bothered, of rebelling against authority. Which is not him - he's always been a quiet, likeable chap and the teacher's pet in every year. I want to stop any downward behaviour spiral now. He does not complain much about doing lower level work in English but the 2+2 is making him very miserable.

Someone suggested elsewhere here that I can offer to be more closely involved in what work he is set in school. My wife and I don't want to appear pushy but we are more than happy to do this.

Any other suggestions on how I can get the school to DO something? Is he entitled to get teaching resources/work from secondary schools? Any ammunition you can give me for my meeting?

Sorry for such a long post.

Have you tried the National Association for Gifted Children?

Agree with Earlybird, actually.

My db had an unusual aptitude for playing the violin. Obviously, his school could not be expected to fork up for lessons with a maestro from the Symphonic Orchestra, so my parents scrimped and save.

My dd has an unusual aptitude for reading and writing.

At least second-hand books come an awful lot cheaper than private lessons with the maestro.

And these days, there's the internet.

So I'm getting off cheaply.

If his great talent is for maths, it might be worth thinking about music though; perhaps even fidning someone to teach composition.

Thanks for the comments, people. Please, please let me emphasise that our problem is only with what he does in school during maths lessons. Outside school we do keep his mind occupied with all kinds of stimulating things (and not all maths related).

And I don't expect the school to coach him for early GCSEs or anything. I have a very simple job for them: Don't let him be so bored that he becomes disruptive. Don't give him such mundane, repetitive work that he comes to hate maths. Do whatever you need to ensure the above.

It's annoying that such a simple expectation may end up being a multi-year struggle for us.

What is his personality like?

It is not a given that he will become disruptive when bored just because you did. Not everybody does. People are different.

I spent boring lessons composing stories in my head and I have a strong suspicion dd does the same. I was also used as a mentor for the weaker pupils a lot, which I have found useful practice in my later career as an academic teacher.

Play to his strengths and don't set your expectations too low. If he has an exciting intellectual life out of school, maybe he can cope with being bored for 45 minutes a day without going totally off the rails?

Personality: Quiet, shy, occasional day dreamer, well behaved in and out of school and forgetful / absent minded. His other likes are magic, jokes, dissecting toys, reading, gardening, swimming, cycling and puzzles like Sudoku and the Rubik's cube. He doesn't watch much TV but does like the Wii once or twice a week.

Maybe I'm over reacting and he'll cope with the boredom better than I did. But I don't like the signs. He's beginning to get cocky, sometimes challenges the work he's been set and is finding ways to avoid school maths work. At the dinner table he's always been happy to recount what happened in school but if the subject turns to what they did in maths he's visibly stressed. On other occassions he refers to boring things in life as "like school maths". He's developing two gears - he uses the lower gear from school work and submits some abolute rubbish sometimes that wouldn't be worthy of a two year old. He wrote the 3 times tables using random numbers and ... letters! Can he cope with being bored for 45 minutes a day? I'm sure he won't jump off a bridge but even the non-maths work is far too easy so I'd contest the "45 minutes". However, he's coping with that. What he's not coping with is the extent of boring in maths. Is the consequence of doing nothing going to result in a disruptive child, one who ends up hating maths or a perfectly normal one? I don't want to find out. Why should I take a chance at all?

What I'm hoping for suggestions on is how to get what we want from the school. I don't know whether I should ask

1. For them to move him up at least a couple of years for maths (and if they do, what's going to happen when he gets to Yr5 and 6)
2. For them to move him up a year or two for all subjects (NOT my choice as he's already the youngest in the class and has slowly made friends but would do it if it solved the maths problem)
3. Can we set the majority of his maths work or supply work for whenever they don't have something he can do at his level?
4. Something else?

I don't even know which of them they can and can't agree to.

Perhaps I can offer another perspective from someone who was there too in terms of being phenomenally bored in lessons - but was, at times, taught very well.

I am nowhere near as good at maths as your DS, but I was 'quick' to learn and so could pick up subjects v fast, and so had exactly the same problem of being very bored. This came to a head when I was about 13 in a few subjects - Maths, English and French.

What doesn't work, I think in almost any case, is being moved up a year or more. The social problems it brings - are huge. I tried it for a bit and it was vile, and then I was moved down again which was worse.

What did work for me was being taught separately and then doing this work in lesson time. I had 2 x maths tutor sessions before school, then did the work from them quietly in the maths lessons, same with French.
I did English lessons with the class two years above me.

This made the world of difference to me; I was older, I know, but it taught me a) that learning was enormous fun at my own pace and b) how to find things out for myself. Despite a very patchy later school life - with some v uninterested schools and lots of boredom - I kept that and so didn't drop out.

If the school won't give extra tuition, I think you should ask to set his own work - but perhaps better to find a tutor who will do this for you.

I also think you should probably look at selective schooling. I spent a brief time at grammar school and was never bored there (plus there wasn't the social pressure to be 'ordinary', which is a huge problem later on). It sounds as though he would be able to get a scholarship to the school of his choice - it's just a matter of finding one which would suit him. The school have made it plain that they don't want to co-operate; you'll be fighting them every inch of the way for years.

A few people have, like you, mentioned that they or their DS/DD wasn't as "gifted". I suspect that at least some were - you just didn't get the right opportunities at school.

Thanks for sharing your experiences about moving up. I agree with you. It's not an elegant solution from the social and other angles.

Tutor. Yes, good idea. The school may be more comfortable if a qualified tutor was providing all the maths work he did in school. So they can allow this?

I don't know if there are any private schools nearby who are so sought after that they select on ability. It would be disruptive to pull him out but if he could work all day with pupils closer to him in ability he'd love it. We'd make some sacrifices and pay the fees even if he didn't get a scholarship. But as we have two other C the logistics could prove quite difficult. It's a last resort option.

DadAtLarge - re your options:

1. Move up a couple of years for Maths - this will work for a while but given his rate of progress he will rapidly outgrow what is normal primary schools maths. Work can be sent from a nearby secondary school for years 5/6 - it was done for my DS, and I know of several other schools where this was/is done.

1. Move up for all subjects - I would avoid this, if possible, given he is already one of the youngest. It also raises questions of how he spends years 5 and 6. (You can move to secondary education early but when the time comes I would only recommend this if he is big for his age and definitely socially ready as secondary education is so different.)

1. You can offer to supply (and mark) maths work for him. Some schools may welcome the solution - some may see it as loss of control. You won't know until you ask. You may be able to get the agreement that he completes the classwork properly (and extremely rapidly!) before being allowed to move on to his more interesting maths. There would also have to be an understanding that he does not do loads of "practice" of the same thing once he has shown he can do something properly.

1. Something else? Private schools do not necessarily deliver better than state schools - there is huge variation. Home education is wonderful - and maths progresses at a stratospheric rate once they are driving their own progress. You could home educate with a view to returning to school based education at secondary level.

The situation should improve wonderfully when your DS gets to secondary education. Specialist teachers usually enjoy children who have a gift and real interest in their subject. You are absolutely right that the trick will be to make sure he doesn't lose his love of Maths before then.

i did maths set by my dad a fair amount in school lessons, and also taught the other kids a fair bit. worked for me, hope it didn't scar them for life. ditto joining an s level english class for extra enlgish during o level years.

as you can tell, this was back in the day, but worth asking head for similar?

re: cockiness from being bright. i was kept at subjects and activities i wasn't good at, no resting on laurels. flailing away at music comp was ego levelling

bows theatrically at typo for english

"submits some abolute rubbish sometimes that wouldn't be worthy of a two year old. He wrote the 3 times tables using random numbers and ... letters!"

You need to be careful here. Some Maths teachers will not countenance moving on unless the child proves 100% that it can cope with the current work. If the child makes mistakes (because of sheer boredom etc) some teachers are wont to seize upon this as evidence that, in fact, they are not as bright as the parents are making out.

I was already reading English more or less fluently when my peers started beginners' lessons. Our solution was for me to bring my own work into class but also take part in any tests/written work etc that was going. I'd just complete it very rapidly and then go back to my own more interesting work. The understanding being that if I messed around with the set work, my own work would be taken away.

Senua is correct - you need to explain to your DS that if you set this up then there are some things he must promise to do as the other side of the deal with the school. Some schools are using Individual Challenge Plans (e.g. whatworkswell.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/upload/pdf/2835/casestudy.pdf) and there will be a discussion with the child, the parent, and the teacher present and it will be agreed the school will do x, the child will do y and the parent will do z. There are then review meetings to see how it is going and adjust the Plan if necessary.

It would enhance your chances of getting what you want from the school if you could persuade your DS to do everything in Maths, no matter how boring, to the best of his ability for the next few weeks! Bribery may be needed. Throughout this whole process keep detailed notes of who says what, and what is agreed (or refused) in case you want to take it further - and keep dated examples of the work he is capable of at home for comparison/proof.

Thanks senua and flamingtoaster for your pointing out a possible excuse they may use. While the teacher won't contest his ability the Head or G&T could use this "evidence" to argue that he's not as bright as we think. Apart from the KS2 maths test they gave him where he scored a level 5, how else can we prove this?

And that takes me to possible excuse #2: He doesn't just need to show ability, he needs to show he is consistently able at that level.

I'll try the bribery to get him to try harder at school but his heart just isn't in it. And a certain don't-care has set in which, I believe, can only be overcome by giving him interesting enough work in school.

I will keep detailed notes. And I'm going to set him a couple of tests at home to demonstrate what he's capable of. Just to be nasty I'll include one or two questions that the Head won't be able to answer herself, he he.

ICP + discussions + agreements + review meetings = I like. That file you linked me to seemed, though, to be about Year 10 students. I'm not sure how this six year old will assess his own "emotional intelligence" or identify barriers to learning and design plans to overcome them. But I like the concept of involving him, about planning together and regularly reviewing progress. I don't even know if he needs "targets" but I'd be happy to agree an ICP - or some modified version - if the school cooperates. I'll raise this at the meeting. Thanks.

This thread has given me one bright idea.

But first, he had heard about imaginary numbers and was adamant that a number couldn't exist only in one's imagination. We went online and found "i" which, as the square root of minus 1, just cannot exist. So he set about trying to prove that i must exist. His first argument is that sq rt of -1 times multiplied by itself must be -1. Therefore i squared exists. And if i squared exists then i must lie between i squared and minus (i squared), which is +1. And if it lies anywhere, it must exist. I fobbed him off with a joke about if I don't exist and Que (mum - Startrek joke) doesn't exist, how would U exist... but he knows I've got some homework cut out. The topic will come up again. Shortly.

I left school at 16 and that was a quarter of a century ago and my maths is not that hot. But, here's another area where this thread's been of help: I just realised I can hire someone! Get a maths tutor/whiz kid/grad student on a retainer and I can spend a lot more time doing my own job instead of being a research assistant. Duh!

Maybe hiring a tutor can be the prize for keeping his head down and getting on with the school work between now and the Big Meeting.

I could incorporate cory's idea into the ICP i.e. do the boring work properly first or you won't get your special work.

merryberry, yes, he recently started music lessons in the middle of the year and he does get a dose of reality there Also, as the youngest (and smallest) boy in the class he can't compete with the other boys at physical stuff. He's useless at drawing and painting. I'm sure there are other things he's not good at doing. He'll readily bow to someone else's expertise in those areas.

Hiring somebody definitely sounds like a good solution. And that will be a role model to him too, somebody who is actually able to make their maths work for them. I remember my own private epiphany, trudging home from school after another fairly dull day, thinking about a historical work I had only just read, and then suddenly it hit me: "somebody wrote that book. If they can, then so can I! I don't have to be limited by what my teachers do or what my teachers know, I can go and do that!"

and I have

I would be very careful not to go down the road of thinking of the school as failing him all the time, though. The person who is going to have to take most responsibility for his quality of life is going to be himself. Always.

As a university teacher I see far too many students who have been encouraging to think that they are being failed the moment they are not enjoying themselves. And others who have fought their way through the most incredible obstacles and still carry on fighting.

Well done, cory

We accept not only that it's not failing him all the time but that it's doing a sterling job in some areas.

Thanks everyone for your comments, ideas and encouragement. I feel in a much better position to tackle this meeting. I may be away for a bit but will check this thread in a few days.

of course a little boy of 6 should expect to enjoy himself more than a university student

but sometimes parents who post in the G&T forum come across almost as if they think being bored is a valid excuse for misbehaving; it sometimes feels very passive, as if they think of their dc always in the role of recipient rather than someone who does something for himself

I have a G&T dd myself, who has no doubt been very bored at times (and also suffers from a disability which makes school physically painful): I would still never hint that she had an excuse to either misbehave or not work at school: I have made it clear from the start that she is responsible for the level of education she gets and consequently for her quality of life as an adult; the shortcomings of the teacher are neither here nor there; when she is grown up, people are going to care about what she knows, not what excuses she had for not knowing it

If a child was as far behind the class as your DS is ahead of it, the school would have been calling in support agencies left, right and centre. The same should be happening here. You need to push for this, BUT to bear in mind that you're going to need to "work in partnership" (horrible phrase, but one that has been an educational buzz-word for a while now) with them so keep them on side.

(Sure you would, but worth saying anyway! )

Hi DadatLarge, my DS1 was like this and I got totally fed up with going into schools and saying that he needed a challenge. The response I repeatedly got was that he didnt act "bored" my son was well behaved and didnt mess around in class which is what "bored/unchallenged" children are expected to do.
Then DS got a Teacher who was so amazing, she was a new teacher and she was inspirational and noticed DS's abilities and worked to challenge and extend his work(along with some others too). Depending on the teacher in future years I found it was easier to extend topics at home using the PC or visits to interesting places.

Another thing I did, was ecourage DS to learn a musical instrument as I believed that by learning a new skill it would keep his brain learning. I was told that the maths and music use the same part of the brain. We have never looked back, music wise.
Good luck.

ICPs are already used in some Primary schools, DadAtLarge and they really can help when set up properly.

This thread is really interesting

I find the whole 'fighting with the school' thing really difficult - Im not good at confrontational situations. The teachers at ds school just dont seem to get him or what he needs (and are incredibly ignorant about aspergers)

Dadatlarge - I definitely think a tutor for your ds would be a great idea! Maybe as he is only 6 rather than a tutor a weekly chat with an older maths whizz or uni student would be fab for him (less pressurised that way)

Good luck with the meetings at the school - Your son is obviously hugely talented at maths, that whole imaginary number discussion - wow that is serious abstract thinking for an adult let alone a 6 year old!

Yurtgirl, I know he sounds really clever but he's not some genius. He's just a normal chap with a slightly above average intelligence and he's been encouraged and helped to explore something he likes. That's what helped him build whatever ability he has and whatever thinking he's developed. That he can perform multiplication of long numbers in his head and remember long strings of random numbers is something I'd like to take credit for - he wasn't born with the skill. Because he liked working with numbers and I didn't want to push him too far ahead on the cirruculum I read up on all these Trachtenburg and other systems, let him loose on them and devised worksheets etc for him to play around with. I "distracted" him if you like. It was about maintaining the interest and inquisitiveness rather than "pushing" him.

Most kids would be able to do the same party tricks he does (yes! arggh!) if maths was made fun enough.

But, that said, I'm not going to admit to the school that I think he's ordinary. I'm going to have to make him out to be a genius, ask to see the KS2 paper he took and demonstrate the things he can do with numbers that they are not aware of... or I'll get nothing from them. I'm not going there in a combative mood, but after three years watching from the sidelines I'm ready to start putting the pressure on and then keep building it up. In a "partnership" kind of way, of course ;)

It looks like if you don't ...you lose.

"If a child was as far behind the class as your DS is ahead of it, the school would have been calling in support agencies left, right and centre"
I like that line. With your permission, I'll use it.

cory, I completely agree with you about responsibility. But, at the same time, there's just so much you can torture a six year old with before you start seeing some changes in behaviour or attitude to learning.

By the way, his theory on why "i" exists is all rubbish. I'll let him down gently. It's a good thing he asked me, if he had asked in school they'd probably have said he shouldn't be working on this advanced stuff, and notified social services and the NSPCC about the pressure I'm putting on him.

still sounds pretty good if he's trying to work out theories of his own even if he gets them wrong

I think you are right to talk to the school

don't overdo it on the support-agencies-for-SN-children-argument though: there is a risk that the headteacher actually knows how pathetically insufficient these resources are and how impossible it can be to get even a severaly disabled child statemented because the LEA simply don't want to fork out
(speaking here as the mother of two disabled children)

it is not the case that money starts raining down on you the moment you are diagnosed with a disability

so just go gently on that argument

an good luck!

I've been away & missed a lot on this thread. A thought occured to me with the tutor idea (which souns a ood idea to me). At secondary age the UKMT, who run the senior school maths challenges, run mentoring schemes for very able mathematicians at secondary school. I just wondered if it might be worth getting in touch with them by e-mail & asking what their advice is for keeping junior aged very talented mathematicians interested & stimulated - they may well have ideas/opinions. It may be possible to join the junior mentoring scheme pre-secondary in some cases (though I suspect you'd need to be older than 6!) or maybe something similar exists for younger children.