Please don't slate me if you think this is in the wrong place - but I am hoping you may have some pearls of wisdom for me

[katsh]

My dd (yr 4) is having a hard time at school. She is top of her class in all subjects, also musical and artistic - (I only mention these because it's the context not because I think she is something special - although of course she is to me ) Classes are not streamed - she is on the g & t register ( for what it's worth), she does not want to be noticed, and despite the teachers knowing that they often draw attention to her work in front of her classmates. Yr 3 was tricky. Last term was tough, but she had a few friends. This term a group of girls who have told her that they don't like that she does well, are working hard at taking her friends away. As 8 yr old girls, it's not hard to do. She thinks that they bully her just enough each day so that she won't feel she can talk to a teacher, but just enough to upset her. She is a tough girl and at the moment I'm just advising her to stick it out, but I hate the thought that her primary school years are being spent like this. What i'm wondering is whether very bright children have an easier time in a school where the classes are streamed or if you are at the top will you always be picked on ? She is a pretty likeable child, and has friends outside of school where there is no school related competition. Advice please.

IME very bright children (and not-so bright ones) have an easier time in schools with a robust anti-bullying policy. This is what it really comes down to. Not whether being bright is seen as attractive or not, but whether it is seen as acceptable to bully those who are perceived as less attractive.

In other words, it's the other children who are the problem, not your daughter.

I would speak to the teacher and explain what's going on.

I have never had the feeling that bright children are picked on in dc's junior school, but it's more of a case of noone being picked on than anything else iyswim.

I think you need to talk to the teacher. Not an after-school chat, but a proper, private, conference. IMO (as the mother of a very bright 8yo) at this age streaming helps, but is not critical as long as the staff are up to their jobs.

I think there are two main issues to address here. One is the bullying, the other is your dd's relationship with her teacher.

dd1's junior school is streamed for num and lit, but not for the other subjects. it seems to work well for bright kids and we have had no issues with dd1... although, in actuality, the children in the 'bottom' sets are losing confidence etc and i can see a few esteem issues developing...
there's no perfect answer. does she see the other girls at after school stuff?

as for whether you will always get picked on at the top - no, of course not, but there are always bullies. some children seem to have a natural knack of deflecting them, and some don't. it's nothing to do with how bright you are...

Thanks for the advice. Cory what do you regard as a robust anti bullying policy? The school do have one, but tbh the problems seem to become worse when the staff become involved as more attention is drawn to my dd and then she is picked on even more. It's a hard one to break. Do any of you have bright kids at schools where the general level of ability is high - and is bullying still a problem there? I'm not naive enough to think that being in a " bright kids bubble" would solve the problem, but I am interested in hearing of other people's experiences in order to inform our thinking.

This is really tricky...
I have taught both year 3 and year 4 and have noticed that this is an 'itchy scratchy' kind of couple of years, they are no longer infants and are redefining their friendship groups and start noticing differences between each other. You can't just say 'oh go and play with so and so ...' as you can in the infants and so a lot of work has to be done in learning how to get along with poeple you like but also people you don't.

I would keep a log that your daughter can write all the incidents that have made her unhappy. I would do this for a couple of weeks so she can see you're taking it seriously ( not suggesting you're not at all) but then you get a real picture of what is happening, how regular and when (certain times of the day? Certain lessons?) I would then take this log to her teacher (if approachable) and discuss it with them she will then be aware of when where, what etc and can keep an eye out discreetly then have another meeting to see what the teacher has found out whilst still writing the log (it is all evidence) I would then ask for a meeting with the teacher to discuss what she is going to do to help your daughter and this may not necessarily mean talking to the girls involved as it could be just simple talking through of senarios in a PSHE session.

I mean that the school is continually teaching about bullying, both teaching the children not to bully and that it is their duty to intervene when somebody is being bullied (and ideally, this teaching to have been in practise since Reception). I mean letting it be known that the school will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone caught bullying somebody else. I mean staff (including dinner staff) being clued up enough to look out for signs of bullying behaviour and catch perpetrators in the act. I mean constant reeducation of the other children around. My experience is that it is difficult to bully somebody who is defended by 28 people.

Being set wouldn't keep you in a permanent bright kids bubble- setting only works for lessons and usually only for a few lessons.

You can also ask to see the schools' anti bullying policy, you may even have a copy sent with your prospectus -may be a long time ago though!

Ask to see the full version from their policy document folder held in school not just the cut down one sent to parents.

Thanks muppetgirl and cory. That's helpful. We will try keeping the log and then see what happens.

IMHO, streaming doesn't make much difference. Ds was at a streamed school and still got picked on though he also had friends. Think it makes sense to respond on the bullying front.

I was very very bright at primary school and bullied. If anything streaming made things worse, as it tended to be other jealous bright girls who were the worst bullies.

My DS is also aged 8 and in Yr 4 and is quite bright. He seems to be in the top sets for maths and literacy and goes to an extension group once a week with some of the other Yr 4 children. They don't have a G&T register at his school.

He is in a mixed ability class and he doesn't experience anything like your DD is going through. He seems to be popular and well liked and none of the other children seem to hold it against the children who go to this extension group.

As far as I'm aware, his teacher isn't in the habit of holding his work (or the work of any of the other more able children in the class) up as a "shining example" to the other children - thank God. I think she is more in the habit of holding up the work of any child as an example if she thinks they have done it well, or it represents a particular achievement for any given child - regardless of ability. Surely any good teacher should be doing this, shouldn't they?

In your shoes Katsh, I would be arranging to speak to the teacher (and possibly the head too) to get to the bottom of this. I'd certainly make sure they stop drawing attention to her in class over her work if she's finding that hard.

I'd think I'd also be looking at myself to see if there was anything that I was maybe inadvertently doing to exacerbate the situation. For example, have you maybe "bigged her up" a little too much? Does your DD know she is on this G&T register? If she does, maybe she has unwittigly let it slip to her peers in the past and maybe had a little boast (before the bullying started when she wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong in it) and maybe this has given rise to the problem?

Whatever, bullying is never acceptable and it has to be stamped on. I really hope you can sort it out soon. It sounds horrible what your poor DD is going through.

It makes you wonder if these G&T registers and labelling children in this way at such a young age is a good thing and serves any useful purpose when the likelihood is that most of them will level out at some point. Actually, I'm glad they don't have it at our school.

Thank you all for your posts - sorry I've not responded for a few days. Gunnerbean - she doesn't know she's on G&T and we have not made anything of her abilities at all apart from normal encouragement of her ( I think)- but definitely worth looking at this from all angles in case we are making things worse. It did get better for a few days, but the last 2 days have been bad again, so I think I will have to speak to her teachers. Anyway thanks again for taking the time to post.