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Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

Not sure how to deal with school

15 replies

OliBenji · 13/12/2008 11:53

Hello everyone. This is my first post, someone on another forum I post on suggested you may be able to help me.
I was just wondering if anyone had any knowledge / experience of SEN and gifted and talented students.

My son, O, is particularly good at maths, has been largely winging it through infants and went into year 3 in Sept with a plan to go into year 6 for maths. However, it seems that he's brighter than that and is outperforming even the G&T student in year 6. School have made a link with the local grammar school and have assessment materials for years 7 & 8 but whilst the numeracy co-ordinator seems to talk the talk, she isn't walking the walk iyswim.

O's class teacher, is by chance a mathematician and is doing her best but I've thought for some time that, if he had SEN at the other end of the spectrum, then he'd have been statemented and had extra support / resources but it doesn't seem to work like that for G&T students. There is talk of a 6th form student from the grammar school coming in after Christmas to do some 1 to 1 stuff with O but I don't know if that's enough. We've been told that not only is he very far ahead of his peers, his rate of learning is also much accelerated and so he covers topics much more quickly than you'd anticipate and I'm concerned that we have another 3 years and 2 terms but they seem to be not doing much. He's saying that he's bored and the material he's using isn't challenging and his class teacher, with the best will in the world, has another 24 students to teach.

I've tried to be nicey nicey about it because it's early days and ateod, O (and my other 2 sons) will be at this school for a good many years. Also, it's my experience that it's not a good move to upset people this early in a relationship but am feeling like I may need to become pushier in the new year as nothing much is happening. He's supposed to be going into year 6 (the numeracy co-ordinator's class) each Friday but it happened once last half term and not at all this half term which is frustraing and disappointing for O because his numeracy work has, to date, been very isolated and so it's nice for him to be able to do investigation work in pairs and so on.

Someone has suggested that we should push to have him statememnted and so I just wondered if anyone had any experiences to share?

I feel a bit stressed about it really. I think because I'd hoped it would all fall into place when he went into the juniors. When O was in the infants, my main worry was the social stuff - when he was in nursery he wouldn't go out when the bigger ones were in the playground (even though the nursery part is completely separate) because he couldn't cope with the noise and so when he got into infants, just getting him out there at playtime and being in the toilets when someone was using the electric hand dryer were our main concerns! He did really grow in confidence, though I wouldn't have said it was until part way through year 2 that he could have coped outside of his age range peer group iyswim and by then they were the biggest anyway. So all through infants, he's had extension work in the classroom but has had to work alone.

I was really surprised when he said he wanted to try going into year 6 and even more surprised when he'd really enjoyed working with this other G&T student (they weren't so scary mum! He said) that it's been a real disappoiontment to both of us that it hasn't continued - for a variety of very plausible reasons but it still just leaves me wondering. He just thought it was great that he could work in a pair with someone who understood what he was on about!

I think that part of my worry is that he just seems to be getting more brilliant (if that doesn't sound too awful). Each time we talk to someone, he becomes more unusual and to us of course, he's just O and we don't have any other frame of reference. It really shocked me that they thought that his needs wouldn't be met in year 6 because he was working at a higher level than that and I hate that he's complaining that he's bored so even the year 6 & 7 stuff they're giving him in the classroom isn't stretching him iyswim. He's just done a practice SAT paper with the year 6s and got a level 5b- which I don't really undestand but believe is above average for an 10/11 year old.

I do feel that the numeracy co-ordinator seems him as a problem or difficulty rather than an opportunity.

I just want to do what is right or best for O, I want him to be the best O that he can be and I'm really not sure how to acheive that for him. I guess I feel out of my depth and am used to the infant school who I also felt wanted that for him.

Sorry that was so long - thanks for reading if you got to the end!

OP posts:
Lemontart · 13/12/2008 12:02

not much experience to offer, but I would be unhappy at the thought of a 6th form student providing the extra support. He should be having trained, professional support and not a 17 yr old.
I would go into the school and be honest about how you feel. Make an appt. with the headteacher and discuss your concerns that his needs are not being met and you are worried that he could a) not meet his personal potential by inappropriate work and teaching, b) he will get bored and disaffected by school.
As long as you are polite, show keenness to work with the school and listen to their advice, you will not ruin or upset any relationship.
I worked in a secondary school and I know back then there was funding and specialist teaching for GandT pupils. How it works for primary ed and in different counties, I do not know.

Good luck - make a polite and considered fuss. Sometimes schools need parents to bring an issue to the fore and jog them along a little. A good school will appreciate your concern and interest in your child to fulfil their potential.

cory · 15/12/2008 09:41

I wouldn't exaggerate your ideas of how much help he would be getting at the opposite end of the spectrum. Having SEN or a physical disability is not a free ticket to As Much Help As You Need. Even very severely disadvantaged students often end up with the bare minimum.

My dd is physically disabled. It took us 3 years to get her any help at all. She was regularly excluded from classes because of access problems and it is only now in secondary school that she will be getting the laptop she needs to do her written work without injuring her wrists. She is also G&T, with a distinct gift for languages, but the mere physical struggle of keeping herself going during the school day exhausts her to the point where she is often too tired to be learning at all.

This doesn't make your situation any better of course. But even if he got statemented, what he would get in academic terms might be quite limited: resources are stretched thin atm.

Not saying the school shouldn't be doing things, and hopefully they will, but while you are pushing, could you help him at home, at all, just to keep him from getting unhappy? Would an Open University course be appropriate?

When I got bored at school, my parents set me up to learn foreign languages at home. My db is teaching his son to compose music, to make up for his somewhat under-stimulating experience at school.

It might be worth looking at ways to stretch him sideways, not just pushing further in a school subject iyswim. How about astronomy? Music is often good for mathematically gifted students.

mimsum · 15/12/2008 09:57

it is possible to get a statement at least partly on grounds of giftedness - ds1 has the highest level of support our LEA gives when a child is in mainstream and it's partly because of his IQ and partly because of his Tourette's - it certainly sounds like your ds has some social issues so might be worth exploring the statementing process

ForeverOptimistic · 15/12/2008 10:13

It sounds like he is exceptionally gifted, it may be the case that the school/lea have not dealt with this situation before. Can you afford to provide extra tutoring? Have you considered KUMON or the Ryde College in Watford? If you are not close to Watford they may be able to provide support via distance learning.

OliBenji · 15/12/2008 11:39

Thanks all very much for your thoughts, it's really helpful.

ForeverOptimistic - I'm sure you're right, school haven't ever dealt with this situation before, it's just that they seem to see it as a problem rather than a challenge / opportunity and that worries me a little.

I'm interested in what cory says about stretching him sideways - that really makes sense and tbh, I don't really want him to continue to just escalate in his maths, the breadth of his knowledge is also important so I will def look into those possibilities. I'm a bit reluctant to give him 'more' maths outside of school because it almost feels like it'll just make the issues worse iyswim?

I'm actually going into school this aft to help witht he Christmas party so I think I'll have a quick chat with his teacher then and arrange a meeting for the begining of next terms.

Best wishes to you all.

OP posts:
Kammy · 15/12/2008 17:56

Like forever optimistic - sounds like he is exceptional. My ds is also a very bright mathematician now in Year 2 and able to tackle Year 6 work. School has been very good and set extension work but like your ds, he mostly does this on his own, and I think they will start to struggle with what to do with him in a year or two.

What we have done is start ds with piano lessons.....a bit of sideways stretching - and he loves it. It also seems to feed into that logical bit of brain that enjoys maths, and is quite challenging in itself. It has helped stop him do endless maths outside school (he does it for fun!) and we now have lots of fun with music.

Perhaps worth exploring? Nothing to add that has not been said otherwise.

Threadworrm · 15/12/2008 18:10

He does sopund a bright boy. Agree with others about the sideways stretching -- piano a brilliant idea for a mathematically gifted child, both to exploit his mathematical sense and to provide a completely fresh set of interests.

Perhaps also chess? Another mathematically stimulating activity. And exploration of the more mathematical aspects of physics, etc? But all this only if is fun for him of course.

Agree also that teaching by a 6th form student sounds inappropriate and a bit of a cop-out.

needmorecoffee · 15/12/2008 18:13

you thought about home education? I took my lot out of school because dd did Y6 sats in Y2, beat the 11 yo's but the school was unable to follow up on that and she was bored rigid.
I doubt you'll get a decent statement. dd2 has one because she cannot walk or talk and that was hard enough!

roisin · 15/12/2008 18:14

The thing is for a very bright child, often Maths is very easy. It's a linear subject, very logical, and given a bit of coaching they can just whizz ahead of their peers. They rarely need to practise their skills much once they've learned a technique. I firmly believe that a large number of bright children (say 10%) could easily pass GCSE Maths by the age of 11 if they were taught for it.

But what would be the advantage in that? There are very many subjects out there for them to work on, and social skills and teamwork are vitally important too.

Accelleration (being taught with higher classes) rarely stretches children appropriately, and can cause social problems for them relating to other students.

It is also important that bright children learn to work and persevere at tasks that are difficult for them.

Music lessons are superb because nobody can learn an instrument without a large number of hours of hard slog and practice, even if they do have a natural talent for it.

Ideally too encourage him to read well and widely, as this will give him opportunities to learn without the input of adults.

Piffle · 15/12/2008 18:19

quick one from me
My ds1 now yr10 has been doing gcse maths since year 4.
He got no specialist help aside from extra worksheets as primary schools cannot viably teach beyond level 6 and most schools it's level 5 now.
Worth googling cambridges millenium maths project and getting g on their forums. They have super extension facilities, problemsand open days/courses.
Funnily enough ds1 works well within himself happily now at yr10 though his teacher said he is way beyond ahead of age. At last bring avoid grammar he has oneor two others for company.

snorkle · 16/12/2008 14:25

I agree with most of what's been said already. One of the main problems with getting too far ahead in maths is what do you do once you've finished your GCSEs & A levels? Unless you think he'd thrive going to university early there isn't really much to be gained from forging ahead and you might even be doing him a disservice if he wants a career in maths. Better to go mostly sideways (both mathematically and music/chess etc). Suggest that the school enters him for both Primary Mathematics challenge and possibly Junior Maths Challenge (aimed at yrs 7&8) and look for other maths puzzle type activities too. A bit of boredom won't hurt either, though I agree it's not ideal.

OliBenji · 17/12/2008 11:15

Wow! I'm a little overwhelmed. So much constructive help. Many thanks to you all for taking the time to reply - lots of food for thought. Will def check out local music lessons for the new year.

Roisin - you're so right about there being no need to practice skills - once he's got it, he's got it and that's that. He does read loads and socially is much more confident now (a mixed age karate class has shown him big boys aren't so scary!). he's well liked and does get on with his peers so I don't have those concerns anymore.

Away to look at the cambridge site.

Many thanks again.

OP posts:
snorkle · 17/12/2008 12:40

There are a surprising number of mumsnetters with very mathematical children OliBenji, though I'm not aware of any mathematical dcs that are older than about 15. I include myself in that, though I think my ds wasn't as advanced as yours at his age. I'm fairly sure some of the others have been though. It might be interesting for you to start a thread on what accomodations schools have made for mathematical children & whether parents feel it's been a good thing longer term or not. Alternatively, you might find stuff in the archives if you look.

bigTillyMint · 17/12/2008 12:48

My friends DS is like this - has just been diagnosed as Aspergers. He does university-level type maths for fun at home!

It is unlikely, where we live, that he would get a statement - funding.

Lots of good ideas above though.

Coldtits · 17/12/2008 13:02

Try him with the piano. It takes work and working hard and prolonged is something gifted students grow up struggling with.

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