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G&T co-ordinator sending children's poems to vanity press

82 replies

UnquietDad · 23/03/2008 13:11

Maybe this should be in general Education, but it was the G&T person who instigated it, so...

Some of the children's poems, DD's included, were sent off to a company called Forward Press which advertises itself in schools. This was done without parental consent. The first we heard about it was when DD got a letter inviting us to buy a copy of the book, provided that we sign a copyright form for her poem's inclusion. They also sent a spurious certificate and some stickers.

Just wanted to warn everyone not to get involved with this. As a professional in the industry this kind of thing offends and worries me hugely - I am warning my students off this sort of outfit all the time.

They are a profit-making company, a borderline "vanity press". Your child's poem is not "published" if it gets into one of their shoddy "anthologies". They put in everything they are sent, and then market the book at an exorbitant £15.99 a copy for a poorly-produced paperback. Compare this with a normal paperback anthology on the high-street bookshelf - it's about twice the price.

You do not pay to get published, and you do not pay to "see your work in print". If you contribute to a book, you get a copy. One, at least. What Forward and others like them do is simply preying on parental pride and children's innocence.

If your school is approached by them, I strongly encourage you not to get involved.

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UnquietDad · 24/03/2008 00:11

Yes, they always list the five libraries to which everything published or "published" must legally be sent - British Library, The Bodleian, Trinity College Dublin, and, er, I've forgotten the two others...

Lulu - no idea really. From what I've read, I just think they seem a mixture of a printer and a vanity press. You pay for the book to be printed, don't you? And there are various options for covers and blurbs and so on. I still think anyone wanting to do this is best off getting a quote from a local printer.

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madamez · 24/03/2008 01:20

UQD, the thing that appealed to me about Lulu is that you only print as many copies as you know you need/want (whereas with a local printer you've got to commit to ordering, say, 500 copies). So if you self-publish with Lulu you can get 10 copies printed (I am basing this on what I would be doing with such a book), pop them on your market stall, sell them, then get 10 more printed, etc - also, you can put the book up as a downloadable e-book, give the buyer the option of paying to download or paying to buy a printed copy, and it's down to you to market the book (whereas vanity publishers' bullshit is all about how they will do the selling when they won't/can't because very few bookshops will actually agree to stock stuff that is put out by vanity publishers).

UnquietDad · 24/03/2008 09:34

You are probably right about Lulu, madamez. I haven't reserached it that extensively.

The thing that always puts me off it is that I've known people who have claimed they have "published" novels which then turn out to be Lulu, iUniverse or Publish America jobs, which annoys me intensely - it devalues the hard work by "proper" authors like me who have put the slog in to get agents and get published by major mainstream publishers!

So as long as people are under no illusions about what they are doing with it, I'm sure it's fine.

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nkf · 24/03/2008 09:43

It's not just G&T. To be honest I bought a copy (several in fact) and my son was thrilled. I know it's vanity publishing but it seems a fairly harmless vanity.

nkf · 24/03/2008 09:43

I've seen Lulu books. They're okay but they don't look like real books.

nkf · 24/03/2008 09:48

And UD, it doesn't devalue your hard work if somebody wants to pay to publish their "A Short History of Churches in Little Mudbottom."

barbarianoftheuniverse · 24/03/2008 10:28

nfk, I did the same as you and completely agree with you!
I am a writer myself, and have had approx 30- 40 books 'published' (and paid for!) but I did not feel my work devalued by dds poem printed out in a real book with several of her classmates'. She was thrilled and proud, and so was I!
I would have objected if she had been expected to fill in blank words though, into a ready written format.

If you ask me being 'published' is at least 50% good luck, and if anyone wants to pay to have their work bound up in book form that is a more than reasonable desire. And why not? Well off people pay to have their gardens gardened, for instance, and do not expect to be reproached by those who toil over their own turf. I myself regularly have unnatural yellowish streaks added to my mousy hair and never wear a tee shirt saying 'This hair-do is entirely the result of cash and peroxide and in no way reflects the quality of my head'. Nor would I expect to be reproached by natural blondes saying I am undermining their good fortune.

madamez · 24/03/2008 10:33

I have nothing against self publishing: people are entitled to spend their money how they like. If the majority of books self-published are a load of old cock that a reputable publisher woudldn't bother with, that is still nobody's problem but that of the self-publisher. Vanity publishers are scum because they are greedy and dishonest, they tell the aspiring but useless writers their work is wonderful and people will be falling over themselves to buy it, charge an arm and a leg for badly-produced books which only sell a few copies to the authors friends and long-suffering families, and the author is left disappointed, broke and usually humiliated by the process.

nkf · 24/03/2008 10:41

I think the boundaries between proper publishers, vanity publishers and self publishing are being eroded. Partly because of things like Lulu, partly because of the possibility of ebooks.

I'm sure people are disappointed by the quality of much vanity publishing and perhaps left "disappointed, broke and usually humiliated." Others think "Here's my nice little book. I feel rather chuffed. It will make a good Christmas present for someone."

nkf · 24/03/2008 10:49

Does the school get money for submitting applications?

barbarianoftheuniverse · 24/03/2008 11:15

I think dds school made something on it nfk. YoungWriters put it together, well turned out little paperback, has stayed tightly bound these last four years, good quality paper.

nkf · 24/03/2008 11:16

I think ours was Young Writers too. I found it rather endearing to see his work and that of all his classmates in one volume. They'd obviously just had a lesson about similes because they were all about storms being like something.

nkf · 24/03/2008 11:22

Oh, and Barbarian, well done on having 30+ books published.

UnquietDad · 03/04/2008 11:17

"boundaries between proper publishers, vanity publishers and self publishing are being eroded"

No, they're still very clear.

Proper publishers pay you to have your work published. Not much, but they do.

Self-publishing is where you do it all yourself.

Vanity publishing is paying some rip-off merchant an exorbitant amount of money for a worthless product.

With my students - maybe atypical examples, as they are all people who hope to wrote for money and in some cases have had stories or articles or nonfiction published already - I always compare it to plumbing. The plumber comes to your house and mends your pipes. You pay him. He does not pay you for the privilege of doing so. Writing is a "trade" like plumbing - although there are no formal qualifications (optional MAs and the like notwithstanding) you need a lot of professional experience to e taken seriously and writers should ask an honest fee for their services.

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bago07 · 03/04/2008 20:45

UnquietDad - get over yourself!!!

I'm an English teacher in a secondary school and the joy on these kids' faces when they get work published in these books is wonderful to see - and we get copies in school so the parents don't have to buy a copy if they don't want to.

The children who really benefit are those who are perhaps not particularly academically gifted and it gives them a lift to think that others' value their work.

Yes, your letter does sound pompous but I don't dispute your annoyance if this is the field you work in, and I don't have an issue with you teaching your daughter how it all really works. But please don't ruin the pleasure that many children get from this. Encourage schools to buy copies for their libraries if parents have an issue with the cost.

I personally would pay anything within reason for something with DS' work in it - especially if it encouraged him to write.

UnquietDad · 03/04/2008 21:02

I don't appreciate being told to get over myself when I am protecting the interests of my industry and of my children. It is wrong to tell children that this is "being published", and all other writers in education I have spoken to are in agreement with me on this.

The message I got back from the company is reproduced here, for fairness. Apart from removing names it is produced word-for-word. There are pieces of jaw-dropping arrogance in it, which I don't have time to comment on now - I shall come back and do so later.

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Dear [my name]
Thank you for your email.

I can assure you that the process of selecting poems is a highly subjective one. Each editor ensures that at least one or more of the following criteria is met when evaluating a poem, although as you can appreciate individual editors may have different preferences where themes and styles are concerned, so to maintain a level of fairness we feel poems should:

Show confident use of grammar and vocabulary

Offer an imaginative or fresh insight into a subject

Explore feelings and opinions

Be of interest to readers

Attempt creativity in discussion and description.

We also take into consideration the ages of the young writers, it cannot be anticipated that the work of a seven-year-old will equate to that of a ten-year-old, and we do not expect accomplished works of poetry from children so young. Also we take into account any learning difficulties we are made aware of. We read every single entry that is submitted to us, which over the course of a year can be over 100,000. We do not put every poem received into a book and thousands of children?s poems are returned during the academic year.

We endeavour to include as many children where possible; it is not an elitist competition as we feel this applies unnecessary and unfair pressure on children so young. We hope to be able to offer a lot of children places in our anthologies, as 16 years? experience editing primary school children?s poetry has taught us that they enjoy sharing their ideas and working together which very often leads to us receiving high numbers of poems based around the same themes and ideas. With this in mind we will not return any work on the basis that our acceptance figures may cause concern, as we would much rather justify our policies than go against our ethos of encouraging the reading, writing and enjoyment of poetry, that we have so often been told comes as a result of the children seeing their first works in print.

With regards to our book prices: the books are priced after taking in to account our overheads: editorial time, design time, free gifts and the actual cost of producing the book. The books we produce can contain anywhere between 100 to 300 pages of poems. The size depends on how many parents sign and return the permission form to us, so we are able to include the poems in the book. The book is a unique title, full of unknown children?s poetry, it usually contains their first published piece of work and has a personal value to the children published, as well as to their parents and school. The books are all ISBN registered, this means they have a barcode on the book so can be bought from a bookshop, such as Waterstones or online retailer such as Amazon.

Although all bookshops are aware of our titles very few stock them, therefore while the market for selling the books is so small, our books cost more to produce. If the book sold in its millions like a Harry Potter or a Jacqueline Wilson book, we could charge £5.99 for a book, as it would cost 2 or 3 pence to produce on that scale. The print run for the book [your daughter] has been accepted for is still to be confirmed, we can estimate at the average of 300 copies (of which many of these are free copies under the 3 for 2 offer and includes the complimentary copies for schools). We simply cannot afford to charge any less. This is also the reason why we cannot give free copies or pay all the children who are selected: it would financially ruin the company. However, we do give a free copy to every school who enters, so all the children involved have the chance to see their work. We will also award over £7,000 in prize money to pupils and schools. A national competition does take a while to judge, but the winners will start to be selected in approximately a year?s time. You do have to be in the final edition to be considered for a prize and winners are announced once they have been chosen.

Moving on to your concerns regarding our approach to encouraging parents to purchase our products, we do all we can to ensure that children can participate without any costs. We don?t charge entry fees, ordering isn?t a condition of publication, we provide free copies to all participating schools and we don?t use visual marketing for the book, such as flyers to avoid ?I want one of those Mum? situations. We appreciate parents feel under pressure to buy their child the latest toy or computer game, and pay for trips and clubs etc, and we feel we give them every opportunity to have their child included for the price of a stamp. We also address the letters to the parents so they have the choice whether to tell their child and whether to include them. I am sure you can agree we do not have an aggressive marketing campaign or hidden costs: you can purchase a book or not, if you don?t we?ll still include the poem if the consent form is signed. Finally all children published retain their own copyright, so they are free to have the work published elsewhere if they choose. In the Teacher Information, supplied with the competition pack to the schools it does clearly state that parents will be contacted by letter, asked to give permission and invited to order.

We do appreciate that parents may have questions upon receiving the letter, which is why in the correspondence we invite them to contact us directly with any questions or concerns. Our intention is never to upset or disappoint the children, neither to anger or frustrate the parents.

I hope this letter has answered your questions and eliminated your concerns. If you remain unsatisfied and do not wish [your daughter] to be included in the edition simply do not sign and return the permission form. A reminder form is automatically issued if there is no reply by a certain date, if you wish to have [your daughter]'s poem withdrawn now please let me know. (Please also provide your customer reference number, located on the orange copyright form.)

Yours sincerely etc.

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Elasticwoman · 03/04/2008 21:45

Sorry have only read OP. Our dd came home with a similar letter, and I threw it in the bin, explaining to dd why I was doing so.

Resented being put under this kind of pressure, esp as dd was in primary school at the time and could have been upset by my refusal to take part.

bago07 · 03/04/2008 21:46

I've read the letter from the company and don't see anything to get upset about. Their points seem reasonable to me.

If you have issues with this, do as they suggest, and refrain from signing the permission slip.

Swedes · 03/04/2008 21:50

Oh I did this just recently It was a proud mummy moment for me.

Wheresthehamster. Same company. I restrained myself though and just bought the one copy at £15.99.

UnquietDad · 03/04/2008 21:56

Don't worry, bago07, of course I won't be signing the permission slip.

But I feel that I have a duty to go a bit further than that.

I left it a few days (that answer from them came last week) and sent this today. It explains why I think their response is not reasonable.

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Dear Ms X

Thank you for that response, which I found entertaining and also quite audacious in many respects.

Non-paying markets - like those small press magazines and anthologies in which I started out by being published - routinely offer contributors a gratis copy or two. It is considered a courtesy.

The only reason you do not do this is that you wouldn't make any money, because making money is your prime concern. Now, there's not actually anything wrong with that - it's the prime concern of all major publishers as well. But you should come out and admit it. (Two of my books have been published by small independents, and they were still able to pay me an advance. If they'd asked me to pay to see copies of my own book I'd have laughed at them.)

This is not publishing. If I want my daughter and her friends to see their work "in print", I can easily collect and edit them myself and have 500 copies produced by a local printer, then sell them for a fraction of the price you are asking. It would be equally prestigious and "exciting" - if not more so - for them to see their poems for free on a website, or read out at an "open mic" poetry event.

All professional publishing companies pay writers of whatever age for the use of their work. If you have been in this business for 16 years, you should be in a position to be paying writers by now - and if you can't, then I'd be very interested to know where all the profit is going!

You are trying to have your cake and eat it - to be a professional organisation with 16 years' experience on the one hand, and yet pleading poverty and short print runs as a reason for not paying writers on the other. There is simply no professional publisher recognised by the Society of Authors or the Publishers' Association who works like this.

I have been in touch with many schools in South Yorkshire through my network of contacts and urged them to advise parents to have nothing to do with this project.

I can confirm that I do not wish my daughter's poem to be included in the "collection".

My original message and your response have been forwarded to the Society of Authors and to NAWE. I'll also be sending a copy to expert anti-vanity-press campaigner Johnathan Clifford. I'm sure they will find them very interesting.

best wishes etc.

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Elasticwoman · 03/04/2008 22:06

Good for you, UQD.

But they're not going to say Oh OK then and go out of business just because you don't like them. The question is, are they breaking the law? If not, should the law be changed?

Swedes · 03/04/2008 22:08

It would be preferable if they asked permission before sending out the certificate and congratualtions letter. But of course that's their marketing ploy.

I regret being so gullible - now. But really, it's the cost of a large take-away pizza. Children will feel proud of their inclusion and perhaps it will ignite a passion for writing. My sister won a writing competition when she was young and she is now a proper author.

Isn't complaining about this from a professional point of view a bit like a £250 an hour lawyer complaining about a shorthold tenancy agreement being available as a Lawpack for £12.99 at the Post Office?

UnquietDad · 03/04/2008 22:10

Of course they're not going to go out of business, but I would hope and imagine that I'm not the only informed parent they have targeted.

I've written to the head as well setting out my concerns, and I'll be contacting the Local Authority.

They are not breaking the law as far as I know. But they are misinforming people and misrepresenting what it means to be "published".

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Elasticwoman · 03/04/2008 22:11

If you don't get any joy from the Head, I trust you'll go on to the Chair of the Governors. Good luck.

UnquietDad · 03/04/2008 22:12

I was trying to do analogies myself - I tried roofing and plumbing and music, and none of them seemed quite right... Writing is an odd industry, with its own rules.

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