Perfect Pitch at 4

[saintpeta]

At 3.5 when a train rumbled past the house DS would say "That's f# mummy" so I would go and check on the piano and sure enough it was. He knows his scales, plays simple chords and tunes, picks out music from TV shows he hears...is this gifted and talented?

It's really interesting that things are different on string instruments too.

As a viola player I generally prefer keys with flats in rather than keys with sharps - but as a violinist I would rather go the other way. Some keys use more of the notes that resonate more freely on stringed instruments than others - for instance, d major sounds a lot 'brighter' than f sharp major or d flat major.

Probably the voice is one of the most flexible instruments in terms of not having any particular key which it is associated with - although each voice will have its own range that is suitable, and even then some notes might be of a deeper quality of tone which would make keys that use them brighter in general.

Wow, fascinating that so many people on here are interested in the kind of nerdy things I like to pretend to know about talk about

Interesting what you say, mistlethrush, about the voice being flexible. Funnily enough despite that flexibility you do get the phenomenon in choirs in which certain pieces will ALWAYS settle into a key e.g. a semitone lower than they're written in. Not because the sops can't hit the high notes but because it just "feels" better for everyone in that key. (and that will happen in almost every choir you try it in) Weird!

On the piano I have favourite arpeggio keys, usually involving lots of flats (but not F sharp major ) because of the richness of the black notes. D major does sound "brighter" than D flat major. BUT is that because we've been used to hearing all sorts of pieces for trumpet in D major which are all bright and shiny-sounding...?

PS Welliemum I think what you were saying (way back on page 2...) was actually much more interesting than what I was trying to say... I only meant that because of too much reading-of-C-but-playing-of-B-flat, my idea of what a C "is" has shifted slightly. Sometimes as a result I can watch someone play the piano and the sound coming out will just feel wrong in my head because of that conflict. I have to sit at the piano myself to get rid of that feeling! urrgghhh I'm weird

How could someone with perfect pitch name notes unless they've been taught? So it must go hand in hand with a families musical interest.
I have perfect pitch but no-one ever toldme the names or letters of notes. Not till recently and I can now name them. Where I grew up it was sissy to be inteeretsd in music.

well ds1 will never name the keys as he can't speak!

I think I've heard about that boy mistlethrush.....

It's interesting yurt, isn't it- ds, as you know, has a lot of autistic-type behaviours when he was young, and the singing in tune was really obvious with him, too, He could hum in tune before he could talk, the nursery teachers were amazed by it.

Tongue curling isn't genetic, incidentally, that's a common mistake. There's probably a genetic component, as with most things, but it's long since been shown that it's not a simple genetic trait.

aww I love your ds Tamum. Dh was asking a couple of days ago whether you're down this way this year (if so we'll be more organised this year).

DS1's singing started when he stopped talking. At 13 months he'd say 'dar' if he saw a star in a book, at 15 months he'd say nothing but would sing 'twinkle twinkle'. I thought I had a genius

Ahh, how nice of you yurt. Sadly we are not coming to Lyme this year, going to Italy instead (). We were hoping to come down for a few days in May to see my MIL, but she seems to be dying

Are you ever thinking of coming up North to see your SIL? It would be lovely to see you again.

italy instead of Lyme

We have trip to northern Ireland arranged during easter hols. I am already dreading it. (Ds1's behaviour very challenging at the moment and we have to go via scotland). But we'll just be driving to stranraer (then back again a week later). No scottish trips planned (depends how n irish one goes- first trip for 4 years).

oh about MIL.

Yes, seeing in colour is better than black and white but it would be a bit radical of me to suggest because I've perfect pitch I hear music somehow better or differently or on a different deeper level because of that although that may be so. It's hard to compare as I've never not had it.

"Xenia, does that apply on piano's too? Pieces sound different in different keys on a harpsichord to most musical people, but they are tuned differently. Piano's are tuned to have the same 'gaps' between the notes in all scales."
Not sure. My ex husband built a harpsichord - fascinating. When my son plays the trumpet which I accompany on the piano most days he will play what for him is C and it sounds as B flat because his cornet is a "transposing instrument" so anyone playing along to his scales for example reads a C in the music and they have to play B flat on the piano which is hard whether you have perfect pitch or not but then in terms of what I hear I hear it as the note it is which is B flat (if I have it the right way round). Now if I were as I am with perfect pitch and had never heard A is 440 just trumpet sounds then I would still hear that one piece sounds very different from another which is in a different key just like most people can hear that one note is much lower than another except perfect pitch people notice the difference even between a semitone in key different and I suppose had i never hard A is 440 or been near a piano I would still have perfect pitch but might not know the note names. So I suppose you don't need to know the note names to have it and appreciate it.

Thanks.

Blimey about "just" driving to Stranraer. I can see that might be a bit of a challenge. If we do come down I will get in touch- I will miss Dorset and Devon this year.

oh don't even mention the trip. I get palpatations every time I think about it. We have to stay in a Travelodge on the trip to Stranraer. Last time we tried staying somewhere ds1 was up all night. His latest speciality is scremaing loudly at 4am.

needmorecoffee I did teach him the notes when he was 3. I am wondering about the genetic link never heard about this xenia- my brother is extremely musically talented...

Not sure I understand what perfect pitch is, even after reading this thread, but I do have a question. I can't really play any instrument but I can read basic piano music etc. However, I simply cannot sing out of key, or flat. If I hear a piece once I can normally reproduce it exactly. I can also 'shift' it to fit in with a key being played or sung by someone else. I simply cannot imagine not being able to reproduce a note exactly. Two of my children sing at a high standard and yet neither of them are automatically right on the note.Does anyone know what I am on about?

That sounds like ds1 SalVolatile.

Oooh, is this still going? What an interesting thread!

Tamum, sorry, you had indeed said all that already! The population genetics of perfect pitch would be interesting to see. Does anyone know what the heritability is by the way?

I was thinking a bit more about how different keys sound different, and I was reminded that Mozart seemed to have particular preferences for keys depending on the type of music. So his cheery, robust music is often in C major while his sparkly, rippling music is often in B flat or E flat. And his D minor things are often rather ominous whereas G minor is melancholy.

That's just an impression - I always meant to look at it systematically and never did. I'm sure musicologists have analysed Mozart's key signatures - does anyone know?

this is an interesting thread
I don't have perfect pitch, which is probably a good thing as I play several transposing instruments. however, if I am playing/singing a lot, I find that my pitch does become nearer perfect, i.e I can sing you an A, name notes, all that malarkey, but it's not a natural thing that I have (in fact I was HOPELESS at aural all the way through ABRSM exams and my music degree, and my sense of relative pitch wasn't very good, although my tuning always was - weirdo). I sing in an early music choir now that only sings unaccompanied and I do find it very difficult when the pitch slips, as we are a small group I do my best to get them to listen to me so they don't go too far as I find it very difficult.

at music college, I took some classes in the Kodaly method and that really improved my sense of pitch.

I hear the difference in mood/tone/whatever between the different keys too. As do lots of people, even if they don't realise it - a C major piece just DOES sound bright, simple and sunny. Lots of composers do/did what you describe wellie. can't think of any examples right now as have to go and put DS but I will try to remember them, as I know I've studied this before.

I thought everyone recognised the mood/keys thing. I thought you chose certain keys depending on the mood you want to convey.

As in I meant I thought that's what people were taught to do.... (I haven't studied music other than grade 7 flute, so did grade 5 theory aeons ago, but have no other understanding of music so may have completely missed the point!)

I'm sure that my FIL has done something on key use by Mozart (as Mozart is one of his specialities) - I think that you really get into this a lot when you look at Listz and Strauss etc.

Perfect pitch - I suppose I would say that if you don't know the pitch of notes, its being able to hear a piece of music then, possibly several days later, sing it at the 'correct' pitch (as that is where it 'fits')

Had experience at choir last night. Concert coming up. One of the movements has a long unaccompanied bit to start. Choir, particularly tenors, goes flat. I can keep in tune (with what it should be), and, indeed, find it difficult not to. Unfortunately, this sounds abysmal as I am at times about a 1/4 tone out with the rest of the choir (100+) .

The other choir I sing with never goes flat. If anything, it has a tendency to go a little sharp, although not badly. This choir is smaller, and does lots of unaccompanied stuff, but also does accompanied and with small orchestras etc.

I know music does run in families, although to a greater and lesser extent. That's why we've started Ds early on the violin given that he has expressed an interest in it - and string playing should run in his blood (hopefully)

mistlethrush - what are you singing? I HATE singing in choirs that go out of tune, so sympathies!

Key use is interesting. You can look at things like the Magic Flute, which is very predominantly in E flat major. This is a symbolic use of the 3 flats because it is a work very influenced by the masons (of which Mozart was one), and they have 3 as a special number. The overture for example begins with 3 chords. You also have 3 temples, 3 ladies, 3 boys,

D major is accepted as being the 'happy' key - probably as someone said because of the use of trumpets. Things like the Hallelujah Chorus are in D major.

It's all really interesting if you get into it!

Incidentally, I was most perturbed the other day to have the Alan Titchmarsh show on, and Myleene Klaas was on there, playing a piece on the piano. She had a string quartet to accompany her, but there was also an invisible woodwind section....

I'm convinced she was miming, as whenever the sound of the piano played an F sharp, she was on a white key!!! Which was a very weird experience indeed!

Beethoven Mass (big choir) and Bach B minor mass (small choir) amongst other things...

I love the Bach - but it's quite a big sing isn't it!

Btw, do your tenors stretch their chins upwards as they go flat as if in some vain effort to keep the pitch up??? I remember some tenors like that - seems to be something unique to that breed!