Perfect Pitch at 4

[saintpeta]

At 3.5 when a train rumbled past the house DS would say "That's f# mummy" so I would go and check on the piano and sure enough it was. He knows his scales, plays simple chords and tunes, picks out music from TV shows he hears...is this gifted and talented?

Tamum, if you are interested in the development of tonal language can I recoment the book Big Bangs, by Howard Goodall?

All Western music that is 'tonal' in nature is slightly out of pitch to cope with the 'Pythagorian Comma'. because we mostly only hear western music, other tonal structures sound 'out of tune' IYSWIM

so there is a nurture element in it as well

Tamum, if you are interested in the development of tonal language can I recoment the book Big Bangs, by Howard Goodall?

All Western music that is 'tonal' in nature is slightly out of pitch to cope with the 'Pythagorian Comma'. because we mostly only hear western music, other tonal structures sound 'out of tune' IYSWIM

so there is a nurture element in it as well

for info on the pythagorean comma

I've got or acquired relative pitch after many years singing in good choirs. Great for sight reading. Only problem is when - usually in a church choir - the music is transposed and you have to think to sing a tone or whatever up or down. Perfect pitch can be a real pain if you have to perform with the less than perfect so may well be a disadvantage for most musicians.

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I'll read it twice then MB, thanks

welliemum that's what I was trying to say, clumsily, that it could be the other way round- that constant exposure to a tonal language is what confers perfect pitch, or that the tonal language developed because of the perfect pitch... Very interesting about your synaesthesia

Our family examples that some of the most musial people have not developed it whilst other with identical conditioning have suggests there must be some kind of genetic element to it. There was no reason my brother and I have it but not my sister for example.

Welliemum - I didn't know that could happen with music! I get the colours from words, letters and numbers, but not from other things.

I see the OP has disappeared - do you think this was actually a pisstake that has sparked such an interesting discussion?!

Well yes, it's perfectly well established that there's a strong genetic element to perfect pitch, I am just talking about a population level and how the language evolved.

Professor, she posted again after the OP

What a fascinating thread! Welliemum: "It could be a reverse effect, though, couldn't it - all babies are born with the potential for perfect pitch, but they only develop and retain it if they need it, ie they speak a tonal language or they're interested in music." - if I recall correctly (and that is a big if), you may well be right - for example, I think it's true that all babies are capable of articulating the "clicks" from click-languages such as Xhosa, but after a while that ability disappears if they're not exposed to it. Or something like that.

Re the violin, its really interesting, but you can teach children to listen to their violins to tell them whether they are playing in tune or not - the violin likes playing in tune as all the natural overtones resonate sympathetically - so if it is used to having its overtones resonating (you can kill them if you play badly), it will tell you whether you're playing in tune or not (does that make sense??? much easier to explain when you're actually demonstrating it)

Oops sorry

mistle - could that not be down to relative pitch though rather than absolute?

I'm just thinking if someone had relative pitch, but not absolute pitch then the violin could be in tune with itself but flat/sharp (probably the former with my limited knowledge of stringed instruments lol) with (for example) a piano tune to concern pitch.

Whereas if someone with absolute pitch was playing it then they could use that to tune the violin to concert pitch.

So a violin could be in tune with itself and resonating beautifully - but still be flat/sharper than everyone else

(does that make sense).

Yes - does require the violin to be tuned properly first! That was something that I made sure that I taught all my pupils as I thought that it was so important - I couldn't believe that pupils of grade 3 or 4 were not able to tune their violins when I started teaching them. Of course, the tuning bit is where I get my knowledge of what an A should sound like - and why I'm sensitive to very slight fluctuations to it.

BTW, many pianos are not at 'concert' pitch anyway...

Ours isn't at the moment which is another complication and interesting issue whether my perfect pitch gets spoiled by that or temporarily damaged.

But yes there's a genetic element which is why my siblings and I could all be exposed to as much music, do as many grade 8s etc and yet my sister never had nor developed perfect pitch but my brother and I did. None of my 5 children so far seem to have it.

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INterested in the speech/pitch thing.

Ds1 is 9, has severe learning difficulties, severely autistic and has no speech. He can however hear a tune once and then sing it back perfectly. He has been able to do that since 2. I remember when he was 5 his SALT rushing up the stairs saying 'do you realise your son has perfect pitch?'.

UNtil very recently he could only sing alone. He has started being able to sing along with people in the last 6 months (and having read stuff written by other non-verbal people it seems that that's something to do with auditory processing difficulties, so they can't hear themselves if other people are singing). Although he tends to have to go quiet, then sing, then go quiet, then sing when he's singing along with other people or backing music. A whole song is hard for his unless he's singing alone and without music.

The interesting thing is that I have come across several people with non-verbal children with this ability. But lots of those who have started to talk have then lost the ability. Even when they've started talking very late.

We're buying him a karaoke machine for his birthday now he can sing along with tunes (seriously).

'the ability' there being perfect pitch (or perhaps relative pitch having read this thread).

Just had a quick google and apparently perfect pitch is more common among those who have autism. Wonder why that is.

The articles also said (as I think someone else mentioned earlier) that it can make it harder to learn an instrument as someone with perfect pitch can't cope with the out of tune noises that goes with learning. Which reminded me of ds1 who will shout at people and try and close their mouths if they're singing out of key

Yurt my mother was talking about the Newbury music festival - there is a pianist going along there to do a jazz evening. She tells me that he is autistic and needs full-time carer etc, but, aged about 3, he went into a room where someone was playing the piano, pushed them off the stool and started playing - he could play back any music he heard, and a bit later, could be played a full orchestral piece of music and play back a piano reduction of it. He goes round doing jazz as he doesn't stick to the music of other things - and there is some time at the end of the concert for requests - song, key etc to be called in from the audience.

It's a slightly different thing from being able to copy a tune and you only know if you have it once you are able to learn some music otherwise something like - that sounds like A or in E major means nothing to you. So I suppose most people who might discover it never do. I suspect it's a bit like that thing m mother and sister can do and a few of my children - curl their tongue so the sides touch entirely genetic and some have it and don't.

It's quite hard to explain it. My analogy about about seeing in colour rather than just black and white is the closest I get to it. It's the a piece written in say E major sounds entirely different from E flat major, as it it's of a different hue.

Hanaf - whilst pianos are better than eg harpsichords, they are not exact, so there are distinct differences between keys.

Xenia, isn't seeing colour better than seeing black and white ?