Son very gifted at maths - state vs private academic school

[Peaches212]

Hi,

We are SW London based. Son is 6 years old, in Y1 and attends a state primary school. His maths tutor (who we brought in recently to help keep him sane) has assessed him as being 6 years ahead in maths. He is also a good few years ahead in reading (e.g. his favourite books to read are Harry Potter).

The kid is incredible at maths - he is a voracious learner who can do amazing mental maths and pattern recognition work. He also has a great memory. Maths excites him more than anything else. He is likely to be able to do GCSE maths within the next few years.

He is generally bored at school. The school try to help by giving him workbooks and 1 hour a week's lesson with the maths teacher but they are overstretched as it is. We are wondering if a private academic school like St Pauls would be better for him? It would be murderous financially so I guess it's about the value add. I'm trying to work out whether a place like that would really be able to accommodate and nurture his love of maths much more than leaving him in a state school to teach himself soon using materials like NRICH? We are not interested in having him in an "elite" school for the sake of it. We are just trying to find him a place where he can be challenged, happy and thrive on his own terms.

We are having a meeting with his current school soon to discuss what the limits of their offer to him look like.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

From what I've heard indirectly about EHCPs they don't tend to be granted if the child is "only" ahead - there usually needs to be some coexisting disability, medical diagnosis or SEN. Councils are very reluctant to grant them to any child who is "keeping up" because they can't afford them. You might have better luck in Scotland where high ability has legal footing as a SEN in itself but in England the odds are against it. FWIW I'd agree it bodes well as a sign that the school have good intentions.

Exactly. A gifted child fall under HLP High Learning Potential) and not EHCPs.
It is surprising that OP's child was referred to EHCP. It suggest that there are also coexisting reasons for the referral.

If you can find him a better school, then do. How it is paid for and the ideology of that is irrelevant.

My ds is similar with maths and I had no choice but for him to stay at state primary. They weren't bad but by yr six he was so bored he was becoming angry and resentful.
He's at a small academic independent now, and is a different child.Much happier, it's a huge relief.

If you are in SW London, you could try the grammars. You have Tiffin, Wallington, Sutton and Wilson's all within reach.

I personally wouldn't send a very bright child to a comprehensive. Loads of people disagree but my own state education left me opting for private for my DC. In my experience, it's a myth that all bright children thrive in comprehensives. They might get OK grades, but being in an environment where your peers are brilliant and studious and supportive of academic excellence is an entirely different bedrock for lifelong learning and FE than being teased and mocked for being a swot and applauded when you slip behind and skip school.

His maths tutor (who we brought in recently to help keep him sane) - why does he need a tutor to keep him sane? - to share the joy of maths with makes sense, but not to keep him sane.

You have to be careful with very talented children that they do not grow up in a bubble where their talents become the total focus of their upbringing. I would leave him where he is so he gets some sort of normal life focus, but keep up with the maths tutor. Do not be tempted down the taking exams early route - I did this as a child and it did not serve me well, as I went to university too young when I was insufficiently mature in so many other ways.

My DGS has a brain like a planet and went to a village primary school where he learned so much about the world and how to get on with others. He got a scholarship to a private secondary school where he is still streets ahead of everyone else and gets the academic prize every year, getting 100% in most subjects. He is simply wired up differently. But his parents (and all of the family) do not focus on this - he joins in the general rumpus with all the cousins and is a tolerant and kind sharing young person. His talents are acknowledged in the family - his Mum will say: "Hey Johnny, how many kgs of flour do I need if I want to make 2.5 times the amount of cake?" - and when the cousins are in a fix they say "Ask Johnny - he will know" - and he helps me when I am stuck on wordle! But it is no more the focus of people's minds, any more than the GS who is a promising cricketer, or the GD who is brilliant at art or the GS who is a talented drummer.

Keep your son in his primary school and look at the other options when he is 11. Do not make a big deal of his ability; keep up the input from the tutor if he enjoys it. But primary school (indeed education in general) is about a lot more than fostering one talent - he will be learning a multitude of other life skills.

My OH also had a brain like a planet and it did not serve him well - for much of his life he felt depressed and burdened by the expectations placed on him. The suicides of very bright young students at university are a big concern.

I don’t know why the school suggested an EHCP unless there is also SEN involved. Case law demonstrates exceptional ability is not in itself an SEN.

But it is through SEN department that you apply for assesment that leads to ECHP. A parent can do it as well but normally the school does referral.

I strongly recommend to read this thread. The schools are usually aware that EHCP are not for gifted and talented.
https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/being-mum-794/children-4-11-years-60/73786-statement-gifted-talented.html

Also look for coding, computer sciences programs - lots around and these test the logical skills.

I think you may find that he could meet his peers at a selective secondary school - at primary the differences seem magnified but do tend to level out. At secondary he will focus on English grammar, a language and separate sciences.

Definitely consider ukmt and bebras competitions.

Thank you for your replies everyone.

DS is not SEN so I understand that an ECHP being granted is unlikely.

However, being 6 years ahead of your peers in maths and 3 years in pretty much everything else means he has some different needs academically (and possibly socially and emotionally as time goes on).

It is amazing for us that his state school now recognises this, and wants to work with us rather than just pretending it doesn't exist. When they ignored it in the past he became angry, frustrated and sad at school.

Going through the ECHP process and having an ed psych review will help us and his school to better understand his needs so we can get to the end goal... which is to best meet them.

If the school ends up not being able to do that then we will look for another....

@Mischance DS is a "normal" kid otherwise, I like to think we are a "normal" family who just do our best to have fun! Maths/academic achievement is not the centre of our world but we do celebrate his abilities, just like we celebrate our daughter's. Having had many expectations placed on me as a child I am very sensitive to that so my focus is definitely raising a happy kid first and foremost.

Maybe I shouldn't have used that most loaded of terms, "tutor". 😉He has a brilliant maths teacher who keeps him sane and uplifted, especially when textbooks get boring and his school don't get the content right. It is one of the things he looks forward to most in the week!

Interesting about the exams tip, thank you for that. What did you find most difficult about going to university early if you don't mind answering that?

A private school wouldn’t necessarily be the right school just because it’s private. You need to choose the right school with a maths focus, or a gifted and talented pathway.

Contact all the schools, both private and state and see what they can offer, both in academic terms, and bursaries/scholarships. Also, see if there’s any external scholarships that could help you.

To be honest, if you can’t afford it, then sending him to a good state school, and continuing with tutors may be the way to go.

https://www.theschoolrun.com/applying-scholarships-and-bursaries

Useful article with links to find bursaries and scholarships.

Grammar school for secondary, particularly the super selectives. Plenty of kids working at these levels there.

I was barely 17 when I went to uni. I was conscious of feeling out of place. Everyone else was ahead of me in terms of social skills and particularly relationships which was a bit of a minefield. The academic work was not a problem but it was hard to fit in ... everyone else seemed so worldly wise and confident and able to express themselves.
The whole business of living away from home was hard too. I was in digs initially and that was not ideal... lots of travelling.
And it did not gain me anything at all career wise. Who wants to employ someone little more than a kid in a professional role? I got there in the end but missed out on lots of teenager time with mates, and had an unnecessary struggle at university.
I would prioritise happiness.
My DGS who is so brainy is not taking any exams early. His parents do not see the point of it. I agree with them.

If he's gifted enough he may be able to get a scholarship. Some schools will have discretionary funds for exceptional pupils.

DS has a boy at his prep school who is on scholarship and did his GCSE maths in year 3.

Schools fall over themselves to attract very bright pupils. Talk to them

My DD loved Maths. She was well ahead. She got a scholarship for 50 percent and a nursery for other 50 percent. She loved her school. She was very gifted in languages and we had no idea where it came from because exDH and I were both crap at languages. She did 3 languages plus Latin and Esperanto too. We used to go on holiday and she'd be chatting away to people in whatever language and we'd be 'can you go in and ask for some stamps please'. Could you look at scholarships and burseries?

"You need to choose the right school with a maths focus, or a gifted and talented pathway"
G&T doesn't exist in English state schools. the funding was withdrawn in 2011.

"Grammar school for secondary, particularly the super selectives. Plenty of kids working at these levels there"
Nope. The normal range of ability is +/- one-third of age. So at 6, the normal range is +/- 2 years. working 5-6 above age at 6 is highly unusual and suggests exceptionally gifted i.e. as far above ordinary (mildly/moderately) )gifted students, as ordinary gifted students are above the mean.

"If he's gifted enough he may be able to get a scholarship."
There has been a strong trend in the last few years to reduce or end scholarships. We know a few kids who were given 50% scholarships, but they were awarded 5-8 years ago. Now, none of the schools I know will give more than 20%, and a nominal 5-10% is more common. The days of 50% scholarships are largely over. Bursaries still exist but you typically need a fairly low household income to qualify.

"Schools fall over themselves to attract very bright pupils"
not really. You have to fit the mould. They like kids who are ahead far enough to make it easy for them, but not so far ahead that it becomes a problem. Schools want easy pupils - ones that will fit in the top set and not cause problems, but perhaps win the odd competition and make them look good.

My understanding is that primary schools do not offer scholarships for academic merit. However, we will ask DS to sit a few 7+ exams later this year and see how he lands. I had assumed in the past that a selective school would definitely want him but having been to that selective school open day I don't think it's a given. Ultimately though, if these selectives can't meet his needs then they're inappropriate.

At secondary level there are more opportunities for scholarships but I agree with @EctopicSpleen , I would be surprised if it was more than 50%. Many scholarships are awarded honorarily these days. Even at Westminster the Kings Scholars (the top performing kids) are only given a 40% scholarship typically.

"Grammar school for secondary, particularly the super selectives. Plenty of kids working at these levels there"

No, not 6 years above - I've never seen or heard of that, having been to a super selective myself and nor has any teacher I've spoken to. Nor have the heads of 60 local schools according to his head teacher. It's pretty unusual, which is why finding an education programme for him that "works" is proving to be challenging.

@Mischance , thank you for sharing that, I really appreciate it. Definitely happiness has to come first. And letting a kid be a kid as much as possible.

@Peaches212
Have you thought about approaching any of the top selective schools that also have a primary school ( like Hampton Boys) and saying that he is gifted, it can be proven by the exam but you cannot afford tution fees? It is likely that some of those schools would give him a space without fee.
Private primary school would offer much better, individual approach to your son than state school

I don't think there are lots of children working six years ahead. There are some in the secondary school I have experience of, perhaps one per year group.

I know of a child in my daughter's selective school who had already taken Maths A Level when she arrived aged 11 (the school is very selective and the rest of them are generally clever but even the older ones were pretty impressed). There was one in my daughter's year who was working at that kind of level though she had not taken any public examinations as far as i know.

I don't know about the one who had already taken the exam but the one I do know something about had a personalised folder within the class online resources with different work to do and was set a different exam at the end of each year. I think she still went to Maths lessons but they obviously did something extra for her as well.

I think your primary sounds really helpful, by the way, and I would not rush to send him elsewhere at this stage.

So, DD was 6 years ahead at that age (although not in maths) and we are now at the GCSE stage so from our experience I would say...

Only move school if he is unhappy. But if that happens, do it. For us it all fell apart in Yr 2, when the curriculum got more rigid and she had a terrible teacher.

She did then get a scholarship to a small prep (more flexible than the big ones and more interested in helping her). It wasn't a huge amount but it can happen.

However we also tried putting her up a year. This is never great - can do a whole post on why if you want. She is now back in her year group.

Selective schools are not just about the teaching. DD is at a selective secondary; this is partly about not letting her coast, but much more about her being with a group of people who understand her and don't think she is some kind of odd swot. This social benefit is much bigger than anything academic and has been totally worth it for the teenage years.

In primary, going to workshops and other places where he can find kids like him and do some interesting stuff is key - a few likeminded friends is all you need at that age. If you are in London, there are loads of this kind of thing out there. All my info will be well out of date but Potential Plus might help.

Happy to answer questions!

DD is at a selective secondary; this is partly about not letting her coast, but much more about her being with a group of people who understand her and don't think she is some kind of odd swot. This social benefit is much bigger than anything academic and has been totally worth it for the teenage years.

This has been the one of the main benefits for us, too, and we are at the same stage. The difference it has made having a real peer group has been huge. And she really likes being one of the crowd rather than an outlier. Having said that, if you do have a child who is significantly more able than average the number of schools that can actually provide this type of experience is relatively small, IMO.

@BonjourCrisette

I don't think there are lots of children working six years ahead. There are some in the secondary school I have experience of, perhaps one per year group.

Seriously, one per year group? 😀 6 years ahead of time is a prodigy, one in a million and not one every year group. 100 kids in one school, there are maybe 3-3 that are a 1 year or 2 ahead of year expectation.

Totally off at a tangent here, @Peaches212, but can I suggest change-ringing as a hobby?

The basics are fairly straightforward to grasp (particularly when young) but the more complex patterns, conducting and composition, and the higher-level approach taken by the Giants Of The Exercise offer plenty to stretch the most mathematical of us.

Plus, it's a reasonably sociable hobby that nevertheless welcomes the obsessives and the Slightly Odd. And you never know, he might find the handling and ropesight tricky to grasp initially which would be good for him.

Possibly handbells (which has to dive straight into the higher-level approach because you do two at once) might be good for him to start on. Particularly as he's so young - even our tower which is one of the lightest rings around won't take anyone before seven.

If you - or anyone else in a similar situation - think it might help, you can usually find a contact through the nearest church with bells, or the central council website

The server apparently threw a wobbly and wouldn't let me post the link - it's cccbr.org