Son very gifted at maths - state vs private academic school

[Peaches212]

Hi,

We are SW London based. Son is 6 years old, in Y1 and attends a state primary school. His maths tutor (who we brought in recently to help keep him sane) has assessed him as being 6 years ahead in maths. He is also a good few years ahead in reading (e.g. his favourite books to read are Harry Potter).

The kid is incredible at maths - he is a voracious learner who can do amazing mental maths and pattern recognition work. He also has a great memory. Maths excites him more than anything else. He is likely to be able to do GCSE maths within the next few years.

He is generally bored at school. The school try to help by giving him workbooks and 1 hour a week's lesson with the maths teacher but they are overstretched as it is. We are wondering if a private academic school like St Pauls would be better for him? It would be murderous financially so I guess it's about the value add. I'm trying to work out whether a place like that would really be able to accommodate and nurture his love of maths much more than leaving him in a state school to teach himself soon using materials like NRICH? We are not interested in having him in an "elite" school for the sake of it. We are just trying to find him a place where he can be challenged, happy and thrive on his own terms.

We are having a meeting with his current school soon to discuss what the limits of their offer to him look like.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

It lovely to hear that some DS on here made it to Oxbridge. DS will be applying soon so keeping fingers crossed for him

His maths tutor (who we brought in recently to help keep him sane) has assessed him as being 6 years ahead in maths.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but that formula could also be expressed as " You definitely need to keep paying me to be his tutor."

Much depends on the qualifications and experience of the tutor in assessing childrens performance.

In your shoes I'd seek an independent professional assessment of your son's abilities before making any plans/decisions about his secondary education.

My daughter was like your son. She wasn't stretched at all in her first three years at school and was constantly bored. She started doing Kumon maths which she really loved. We moved her to another much more traditional state primary school for year 3 where they stretched her and she thrived. If you find the right primary school and add In extras like Kumon then I'm sure there's no need to go down the private route.

We considered lots of options for secondary school and while my daughter was offered the maximum scholarship and a music scholarship for a couple of really good south london public schools, it would still have really pushed us to afford the fees, and we didn't qualify for a bursary. I also felt uncomfortable moving to the private sector. She was offered a place at newstead wood in Orpington, which is one of the super selective schools, which was her first choice of anywhere, so we were all delighted with the outcome.

That they’re quite hard core and most boys there have been together from prep and have brothers friends from young childhood etc.
I’d explore other options before sending a child to such a school.

Thank you so much for the replies everyone. I appreciate hearing the different perspectives.

We wouldn't qualify for a bursary, I'm sure of that. So it comes down to whether making lifestyle changes justifies the price tags and value adds of these academic schools. And of course those lifestyle changes will also affect our daughter, who is not academic and who won't be going to a private secondary school.

There is also the matter of a commute. Our current commute is a round trip of 5 minutes a day. That would increase to at least 45 mins - 1 hour at one of these other schools.

I have never heard of a local council funding what I believe to be SEN at the other end of the spectrum. That is very interesting. My son's school did approach our local council and they don't seem willing to engage or help so I've mentally shelved that avenue.

We will attend a few open days at some other schools I think. I will ask them about how they teach and nurture kids like ours, who at the end of the day do have their own kind of special needs. I think some of the posters are right - it take amazing and supportive teachers to challenge and grow these kids. And it sounds like such teachers do exist outside of the top academic school system but it is probably just harder to find them?

Thanks for listening to all of my rabbiting!

Why is he bored at school though in general. Maths aside there should be so much going on that he shouldn't get bored.

At my DC state primary there were so many fabulous activities there's no way they'd have got bored plus they all had each other to busy themselves with. I used to go in as you do as a parent once or twice in reception and for other things parents have to get involved in.

It was such a social and active school for the DC and parents.

He shouldn't be bored he should be enjoying himself with friends etc and all the activities they do on a daily basis.

Does he find it hard to make friends or something if he's bored ?

If he's a genius he'll get the grades either way... private will just do it earlier. Not much point to that unless he wants to go to university as a child (which few people do).

Oh and if he's at Y6 standard try giving him past papers for Primary Maths Challenge which are usually aimed at Y5-6. Those questions normally challenge the more able Y5 and 6 students and 0.5% of those who take them get a gold in the followup round.

After that there's the Junior maths challenge which you can google too.

As others have said, there is quite a bit more than just maths and English even at state schools. We encourage ours to try out as many different activities as possible and make them a rounded person rather than just focus on the academics, which I'm sure you're already doing.

I don't think that's right, actually, @IDontWantToBeAPie . None of the highly selective schools in the area in which the OP lives (based on the school she mentioned) would want or push children to sit exams early. The benefit would be a broader and deeper curriculum, which you can't deliver so easily in a more mixed ability environment. I'm not sure you would get this at prep where the focus is on getting into the next school but you can definitely get it at secondary level.

How old is your daughter, OP? Does she have something she is good at where her brother can't compete? In your shoes I might be fairly worried about your daughter feeling a bit sidelined by her brother's academic brilliance.

For kids like ours it's actually easier to learn new concepts and go up the curriculum, and can be much more challenging to do applied maths. So I would personally work on these maths challenges rather than/ as well as work their way up the school curriculum.

Yep good question, how or why is he bored.

From what I can tell he just wants to do quality maths all day long. Obviously there’s other topics and things to learn, like English that he needs to. However he’s frustrated with that too because he is already several years ahead with reading and quite advanced with writing. He loves to read so I don’t think there’s as much new content in class that he would like.

He’s got friends and is social but idk, he’s not massively invested. Could be an age thing or perhaps he can’t connect with them well? Doesn’t help that the best of his buddies is moving abroad soon.

Yes good shout keeping him active in extra curricular activities. We let him try anything he wants and don’t push him. He didn’t feel creative and artistic so I found an art camp and he LOVES that, so that was wonderful. Now it’s warm I’ll try and find a tennis club as he expressed an interest. He did Chinese a couple of years ago and might go back to that sometime. We have a piano and he’s interested in playing so I need to teach him that again. We play chess sometimes, there’s definitely room for improvement there.

I think these kinds of kids can have a lot of mental energy. I will do my best to expose him to many different activities and ideas but at the end of the day if he loves maths then I won’t hold him back from learning. Note, separate to doing exams early, we couldn’t care less about exams. His current school has tried to artificially slow his maths learning down, and for me that’s a big no because I know that will negatively affect his mental health and well-being.

Thanks@0range1 those challenges look fun. I have tried to get the school (with my help) to run comps for the kids and I think they’re just too thinly stretched. Will see what we can do independently.

@BonjourCrisette daughter is 9. We keep a close eye on her because of his aptitude. However she has her own talents - she’s very creative, much more so than my son, so that’s her niche and we celebrate that. Luckily she’s proud of her brother and does not seem to be negatively affected by his successes and by who he is. She’s quite emotionally resilient in that way I would say. However, she is a creature of habit (possibly on the spectrum) so it would not go well if we ever had to sell our house for school fees or anything else.

@Peaches212 Have you looked into Maths Circle? It’s in SW and W London and I think your DS would love it. It’s puzzles and sideways extension rather than racing through the curriculum.
https://www.londonsmp.co.uk/

We went the primary with lots of extra-curricular activities, then selective secondary route. Music has been particularly good (choir and instruments), but also dance, drama, sport.

That is nice to hear about your daughter, @Peaches212. You sound very switched on to the potential issues.

I second @HighRopes' idea of music as a good idea for a child who is racing through the curriculum. Although my DD hasn't continued with some of the instruments she has played at different times it has been absolutely great for giving her an activity that she can't immediately excel at and where she needs to put the work in to succeed.

Grammar school like QE boys or Wilsons would be better in my opinion.
The cost of living crisis would put me off private schools.

I would be looking for better, more objective evidence than a tutor's opinion.
Having said this, state vs selective private is for the most part the wrong question. The real issue is flexible vs rigid. A rigid school run by a rigid headteacher will dictate one-size-fits-all provision. Some private / academically selective schools can be tremendously rigid. They think they know it all and can't be told anything. This won't work for a child that is 6 years ahead of age-related expectations.

A flexible school with an open-minded headteacher can work much better.
Having a very able cohort can reduce the discrepancy with peers but extreme outliers remain extreme outliers.
Extreme outliers need bespoke, individual planning and tend be bored out of their minds and fairly miserable if they don't get it. If there is a will to meet that need, there are many ways to do so, and I've seen several work (all involving acceleration in different forms). What doesn't work is denial of the issue, an "all of our children are gifted" mentality, and one-size-fits-all-ism.

Re: "I’m pretty sure some big name schools would bite your hand off if you brought this little boy to them. It is certainly worth asking"
You'd think so, wouldn't you, but it doesn't work like that. Working six years ahead is a massive pain in the arse for them. They want everyone in a cohort to trundle along the conveyor belt at the same rate.

Thank you, @EctopicSpleen, that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it. Rigid vs non rigid. I had assumed that selective schools would be less rigid because they aren’t beholden to council rules and funding matters. But I think you’re right, a big outlier might just be too much extra work for selective schools too.

We’re hoping that he’ll largely be left alone to learn what he finds interesting, and will have a teacher there on tap who can answer his questions and give guidance. So I need to explicitly ask schools if they will do this and not just assume it from the price tag.

Regarding getting an opinion of more than just a tutor, honestly I’ve not thought it necessary because his output proves the level he is working at. However, I think if his current school ends up being rigid (we have a meeting with the headmaster soon to understand the limits of their offer to him) then we will.

@HighRopes I hadn’t heard of that, thank you :)

I’m so grateful for all the replies, everyone! 😍We are going to a selective school open day today and I’m feeling much clearer about what we are looking for.

Along the same lines (but cheaper/free) there is also https://wesolveproblems.org.uk/ , currently running maths circles in central and east London, Cardiff and Oxford.
It's definitely worth doing as an extracurricular, but doesn't solve the problem of acute boredom in school

there are adaptive assessments built into maths whizz and ixl. https://uk.ixl.com/diagnostic
https://whizz.com/
These would corroborate/refine your information on the level he's working at and give a breakdown into different sub-areas.

If a school starts talking about "maths mastery" you should walk away. It's one-size-fits-all-ism elevated to a religious belief.

My DD found year 2 a bit more interesting as it was a bit more challenging than year 1. She was ahead but not by as much as your DS. She has done things like fractions and telling the time which lend themselves to more extension than the more basic number manipulation in year 1.

I would be very wary of looking at an elite private school for 1 child and not the other. I think that sends all sorts of unintended messages that could cause resentment later. I would look at the superselectives for secondary if you are near enough. He will still be way ahead though. I loved maths and worked through a text book by myself at primary. I was still bored to tears in year 7 at a superselective. It got better in year 8 when we were put in sets to be fair, but it took until year 13 to be challenged in maths. Hopefully things have moved on though.

It's way off, but flagging Kings Maths School for A-level if he is still all about the maths.

I agree it doesn’t solve the boredom in school issue. But if he’s basically happy, has friends, is learning the important social stuff and being offered a broad curriculum (albeit nowhere near the level he could be working) then I’d be reluctant to change schools.

Instead, I’d provide challenge (and learning to fail and how to work hard) outside school, and just accept that some bits of school will be boring for him at primary level. And then think hard about academically selective secondaries which have a flexible approach that can cater to his needs.

If he isn’t happy at his current school, it’s a completely different decision, of course.

So we visited a selective school open day yesterday - we spoke with the headmaster and also with the head of maths, who we will be discussing this more with.

All of the kids there work 1 year ahead of the curriculum. Then the more advanced kids work at the back of the class and are typically working another 1 - 2 years ahead on nrich extension work.

I get the impression that he would still be bored at this place because they don't seem to be as flexible as I would like. However a) still need to tell them explicitly what I am after and b) it is an amazing place for everything else. Oh apart from being single sex, which is not my preference for DS.

So I'm veering towards working closely with his current state school to help find a balance, and then seeing what's suitable at 11+ or when necessary.

I hope that helps someone. Thanks a million everyone for the input and support!

If he is 6 years ahead of age-related expectations then working 1-2 years ahead may not even be noticeable to him.
Here is what I have personally seen work:
a) going to the class 2 years above for some subjects (but this was early primary before the gap widened further)
b) Computer instruction while in the same classroom as age peers.
c) pull-outs / 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 tutoring for 3-4 hours per week either in-person or by video-conference, scheduled to occur at same time as the rest of class were doing maths.
I have also known of other cases where these were used successfully, in some cases where the child is 4-5 years accelerated e.g. attending an A level or Scottish Higher class while in Y7 or equivalent.
Whole-year acceleration is also a viable option but depends on whether the child is generally advanced or has particular strengths in 1 or 2 subjects. The research evidence is very strongly in favour in the right circumstances, but British teachers are very reluctant to do it because they fear what they do not know.
For tutoring within school hours there is the question of who pays if the tutor is not a school employee. I'm aware of cases where the school has paid, and where the school has facilitated it but the parent has paid.
Re: computer instruction, conquermaths was the school's choice - I quite liked it for secondary curriculum but preferred maths whizz, and especially Beast Academy for primary and early secondary material.

He is only 6 years old. A lot can change until decision time and the age of 10 years old
At the age of 6 the top of my son's class in math looked very different than now when he is 10. My son was also bored at the age of 6 but 11+ tests are TIMED and if you have to do 100 questions in 50 minutes then the perspective changes.

Also, the school's performance may radically change between now and in 4 years time. I would recommend relaxing and if you want give him 11+ tests now and as to do mock test in 50 min....:)

In my experience a child who is 5-6 years ahead at 6 can complete the GCSE course by 10 (the curriculum; distinct from the exam) and be moving on to post-GCSE material (A level, or EMF or AOPS as good alternatives to A level, though pricey). The 11+ is/was a complete irrelevance and distraction.
It doesn't "level out" unless the exceptional learners are held back to point where they stagnate and disengage, which then leads to the very difficult issue of how to re-engage and reverse the externally imposed underachievement and build back atrophied curiosity and work habits. It is much better to support them in progressing at their natural pace and not do the damage in the first place. An analogy is properly fitting shoes: it is much easier to ensure the shoes fit at each stage and age than to make kids wear shoes that are several sizes too small just because the rest of the class have a smaller average size, then to attempt to treat the issues that arise from having worn the wrong size for an extended period, The damage may be partially irreversible.

We visited the elite private school. Definitely got the vibe that they don't experience with a kid like this and they take in a very specific cohort - i.e. those kids who are right of the bell curve but not too far right. It was very helpful to meet the headmaster there and chat our situation through with him.

We also just had a meeting with his current (state) school. They are very supportive and admitted that they have no experience in this area. They are very happy to work with us to put in place the "right" programme for him and they recognised that he needs to move at his natural pace. They also suggested applying to the council for a ECHP, which I was very surprised but happy about. Even if we don't get the funding, it confirms their inclusive attitude towards him. It is a big relief that he can continue at his current school.