Bright child - what to ask prospective primary schools?

[Schoolchoicemission]

Hello, I’ve posted another thread on this as I’m struggling to choose our first choice school for our DD.

She is very bright (reading fluently now at 3.5, among other things). I have visited both schools and asked them what they do to differentiate work for kids in the class (without giving details about DD specifically) and they both gave what sounded like good answers about teachers being experienced at pitching levels appropriately and there always being a range, but it was quite vague. (In both cases I was on a tour with other parents we know and didn’t want to come across like a knob, so didn’t really press further, but I can call them).

It’s obviously too early to tell whether DD is just on the bright side of normal/an early developer or more unusual and in a way I don’t know the right questions to ask to get to the bottom of which one is likely to be able best to support her.

For parents with bright children, how has this been catered for well in primary school and is there anything that would be useful for me to ask about specifically?

It never even occurred to me to ask. I assumed they would be given more challenging work if needed but, other than that, as long as they weren't causing a problem with behaviour then it was all good. We did a lot at home to expand their experiences and answer questions but mostly we simply tried to model good learning behaviour and work ethic.

DS was not truly challenged until A level and even then he could read a text book and 'get it'. He's on track for a 1st in a STEM subject at Uni. Knowing his character, any efforts to push him would have been met with resistance so we mostly did it through talking and broadening his experiences from school.

DD1 and 2 (not on the same level but still G&T) just followed in what we'd done before 🤷‍♀️ Education doesn't stop one too step out of the classroom.

You could ask for the SATS results percentages who achieved beyond age related expectation. This might not necessarily correlate with the 'better' school for your DC but it will give you an idea of the school who has more children working at this level (obviousky you will need to compared this to the average number in a cohort). You could also ask about opportunities for more able children as lots of schools do enrichment classes to encourage a development of learning for these children. A school I worked at did STEM days and Author workshops every year for G&T groups. I would ask HOW they extend these children too as I would expect them to say something along the lines of more opportunities for independent investigation, self-led study and group work with adults to bring their knowledge on further, not just more difficult questions. I hope that helps

I helped out in my DS2 class from Reception due to there being no teaching assistant. This was 20 odd years ago, but I can honestly say that no children there could read fluently. The September to December birthday children were definitely brighter and the work given was way too easy for them, they were often very bored. One of the parents who was a friend of mine asked me about the work their child was given as she didn’t seem to be stretched enough and they were considering sending her to a private school. I told her honestly that she was right to take her out.

Thank you. Yes @Gatehouse77 appreciate not all learning happens in school! I guess I’m just struggling to decide between these two particular schools and this is one factor to explore (amongst others).

Really helpful @Nellesbelles, much appreciated.

@Mindymomo DD is a May birthday so at the younger end of the school year. Private definitely not an option for us, on financial or moral grounds.

How big are the schools? I have two able kids and they went / go (by luck not good management!) to a very large primary. (90 kids per year.) This helped a lot as they would do extension work for the 3 across the year that needed it rather than dd / Ds being the only one as probably would have happened if there had just been one class.

In my experience even the most motivated teachers can't really meet the needs of a child with high learning potential in a classroom setting.

My 8 year old DS's teachers are wonderful and try so hard to challenge him but rarely come close.

What kind of books are they reading fluently? Because my answer depends on that, although what follows is a gross generalisation.

If the answer is picture books, then great, they'll probably be fine in any decent school and the differentiation offered in the class should work ok.

If it's more like Rainbow Fairies/Jill MacDonald/Harry Potter, it's most likely going to be quite difficult. Most schools simply don't have the resources to deal with the most able.

But perhaps you'll have the kind of child who's very happy to drift at school and do more interesting stuff at home (mine however brought home a scrap of paper in year 2 with I HATE EASY MATHS engraved into it) so it might be OK anyway.

So in short, I think just choose the school which seems kindest and whose atmosphere feels right, as it is a bit of a lottery choosing a primary because it's really hard to tell what your own child will be like in school.

Also, Reception is generally pretty fine because there is so much choosing and phonics is 5 min a day. Year 1 is where it gets much more difficult.

[also, we had morals about private schools too. They lasted until Yr2 when every single school in the area basically told us they could do nothing by way of extension work...]

Is home education an option? Or independent school?
Schools, in my experience, aren't that good at differentiation. They pitch to the average, those ahead often bored and those behind confused, overwhelmed and switch off. But there is more intervention if they're behind. If ahead they may be told to free read whilst others finish it off, or indeed have them help other children.
If you felt the school was vague, you could ask for a chat discussing your particular child and see what they say.
There are staffing issues in I suspect most schools. TAs are teaching classes, it seems to be getting more common for schools to temporarily close a class because they just don't have the staff , no available substitute teachers. Funding issues too. Makes it very difficult if one child is ahead of peers

Both ds were very bright and the school did their best with extension work, however it was a bit hit and miss. What I did learn that reading in itself is great but you need to nurture things like understanding etc. This can be done at home, so by helping them understand context, asking more in depth questions about what they are learning and broadening out their knowledge. It can be done in fun and interactive ways that help them develop. Also remember that being top of the tree does not always last and they do need to learn to learn especially when they hit things they find harder. Choose the school where they will be happiest.

It’s tricky. I asked questions about this before joining and was assured that learning was differentiated and DD would be given work appropriate to her level. This was a total lie. (I used to work in public sector and people usually answered questions with how they thought things should be / what policy said, instead of the reality which usually was very different, I think schools do this too.)

There was some differentiation, but nothing to stretch DD, who was stuck reciting phonics and copying out the alphabet in year 1, when she’d been reading fluently since age 3. Then they decided to officially scrap differentation as it was upsetting the slower learners!!

After 3 years in which DD literally learned nothing at all, we went private 😢 Anyway all I can say is don’t trust what the school says, rely on gossip from other parents. Find the most academic school you can, preferably where some parents complain it pushes the children too hard, and it will probably suit your bright child.

Thanks for all the replies - food for thought!

@Mumoftwoinprimary both schools are big (inner London): one is 3 form entry (90 kids) and the other is 4 (120 kids).

@wiltonian she’s reading picture books atm. I started properly teaching her in September with her baby sister’s books (Spot, Mog etc) and she’s now reading those easily and moving on to eg Julia Donaldson. There’s still almost a whole year before she starts school though so I imagine she will be on simple chapter books by then if the rate of progress remains the same. Even if she made no progress between now and then I imagine she’d be ahead of her cohort based on friends’ kids, though of course very possible it would all even out quickly.

I have no desire to home school her whatsoever, even if it were possible (DH and I work full time). I’d really like her to have a “normal” school experience for the social aspect if nothing else.

I really disagree with private schooling and don’t think we could afford it anyway. If she’s not stretched at primary then so be it - my main goal is that she’s happy and makes friends - but I guess I just wondered what good would look like from a primary school in this context so that I can ask some searching questions and hopefully use those to choose between two local schools.

Just signing in because we have the same issue - a four year old reading at Y1/2 level in English and something comparable in another language/alphabet. I’ve no idea. Our choices for 2022 are strict academy or liberal arty “just let them play” community school. A part of me wonders whether the latter might be better at accommodating a wider range of kids.

Another one who has found my child not being challenged at all and yet when we met the dep head before he started she promised he would be. He started school also fluently reading (id not taught him he just got it) and by end reception knew all his times tables (again I promise I didn’t teach him - got better things to do! And I’m not that hot on the old times tables myself). He could do weird stuff like read in ‘code’ so if A was 1 and B was 2 he’d write words in their corresponding numbers. I looked at year 5 spellings a few weeks back and he got them all right. Anyway he’s still being set the most basic times tables in year 2 and stuff like fill in the missing number when the first two numbers are 3 and 8 (so the answer is 13) etc / I don’t even show him that homework as there’s no point and he gets annoyed. I’ve asked the teacher for him to be a bit more challenged but only because he’s been grumpy about the homework set but I just think a) his teacher doesn’t want to and b) with 30 other children in the class she doesn’t have the capacity at the moment. He’s a child that loves a fact so we just nurture his love of countries/atlas stuff/marine life by getting him the right books.

One practical question you could ask is what phonics scheme they use and how they approach it. Ours has just moved to Read Write Inc, which is a whole school approach- they are supposed to put the children in groups by ability rather than class. As a result, my ds in reception, who was reading fluently when he started school, is in a phonics group with older children.

I’m not 100% sure what I think about it, to be honest. At this rate he’ll have ‘graduated phonics’ by the end of reception. At that point the children start doing ‘English’ instead of ‘phonics’ from what I can make out, and I worry about how they will differentiate when he’s basically doing a different curriculum to the rest of his class. But I guess we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it- for now he’s happy and stimulated, and I’m happy that they are allowing him to work to his potential.

Thank you @OhPleaseJustLast that’s exactly the kind of practical question I was hoping for. I can ask that.

@Tabbypawpaw in hindsight is there anything specific you wish you’d asked the school beforehand?

@Schoolchoicemission

Hello, I’ve posted another thread on this as I’m struggling to choose our first choice school for our DD.

She is very bright (reading fluently now at 3.5, among other things). I have visited both schools and asked them what they do to differentiate work for kids in the class (without giving details about DD specifically) and they both gave what sounded like good answers about teachers being experienced at pitching levels appropriately and there always being a range, but it was quite vague. (In both cases I was on a tour with other parents we know and didn’t want to come across like a knob, so didn’t really press further, but I can call them).

It’s obviously too early to tell whether DD is just on the bright side of normal/an early developer or more unusual and in a way I don’t know the right questions to ask to get to the bottom of which one is likely to be able best to support her.

For parents with bright children, how has this been catered for well in primary school and is there anything that would be useful for me to ask about specifically?

We had similar problem. What we found most useful during the school tour was by asking for the work the students produced, ie. if differentiated work was given, what kind of work the very BEST students in the class are doing. Pick a school actually has experience dealing with bright kids and meeting parents' requests. We picked a school most suitable for DD and it has been working well with us.

I'm going to sound like a bit of a knob writing this post but so be it.

I am very intelligent (straight As, first class degree, PhD etc) my child has just started reception and has always been well ahead for their age. Honestly I didn't look for anything special in their school in terms of academics. I had nothing special myself, standard small town primary and low rated secondary. However I still thrived academically and I feel my children will too from that respect almost regardless of where they go. I think there is so much more to school on top of the learning part and whilst their results/grades are of course important I'm sure they will achieve this regardless. So I picked a school based on how it felt, the attitude of staff and the wider things they offered. It's a tiny one form entry and they have settled in so well there. I think I'll probably become a bit more picky once they get to secondary in terms of academic achievements but at primary level it really wasn't my main concern. I feel like they have the rest of their lives to learn everything they could ever want to and the speed at which they achieve one thing and move onto the next (like reading) doesn't matter as long as they get to where they need to be at an appropriate age so they aren't held back at all.

@twinsyang

"what kind of work the very BEST students in the class are doing."

What an awful way of describing children, ranking their worth by ability. See I'd be more worried about teaching my children the social skills not do to this.

I guess just ask what they do for G&T children?

I didn't ask, but they called me in after a couple of weeks and said they were putting her in groups for extension science and thinking. Some other children were in extension art. And there was extra support for children who needed more time and encouragement too.

So my take on it is that the schools have usually thought of these things...

@Schoolchoicemission I don’t think I’d have asked anything different in hindsight. He’s happy enough bumbling along. I did let them know he could read before starting there. The thing is they can read but not comprehend, many children have to learn to comprehend and I think that’s what they worked on with my son, also stuff like reading with expression. In many ways it’s considered a good school but like all its overstretched and I don’t think the teachers have the time. My mum, a former teacher, was v concerned he’d be disruptive in class as he was so ahead in many areas but so far (touch wood) that doesn’t seem to be the case.

twinsyang, I think that my eldest son is amazing. He is kind, gentle, patient and very well behaved. He has always struggled with schoolwork. He has needed extra help and support in many areas. I am sure that the young people in his class who get much higher marks than him are also wonderful. However, they are definitely not better than him.

My DD was also an early reader, and nursery thought she was very bright. We worried about which was the right school, but in the end sent her to the local school, even though it was only a one-form entry school that had not given us very convincing answers to our subtle questions about how they cater for the bright ones.

DD is now in Y6, and we found that her experience varied very much from year to year, depending on each teacher. Reception was great – we waited for the teacher to notice that DD could read, and by May of YR she was on KS2 books, and she was gently challenged with the minimum of fuss.

Y1 and T3 were a bit of a dead loss, but Y2 was great as that teacher really stretched the bright ones. Halfway through Y4 Covid hit, so it’s not a fair comparison, but our focus at home has been the 11 plus, and now that has been successfully negotiated, DD is on the home run to secondary.

Although we worried a lot when DD was younger, I do now broadly agree with akiehan that bright children will succeed anywhere that offers reasonable opportunities. No doubt DD could have been pushed ahead, but unless you are targeting super-selective secondary schools this isn’t necessary. Most importantly, DD is happy, confident and is liked by her classmates and teachers, and she is ready to be challenged at secondary school.

You could ask whether they do any ability grouping within/across the classes. However, even if they do that at the moment, it might change over the years. DD’s school switched from ability tables to mixed seating, so a promise now isn’t an indication of what might happen in a few years’ time.

ANother perspective OP I have a bright (ie. good at reading etc) summer born child and the reality is that a lot of what she is developing at school is social skills.

I don't think you need to worry - remember that the UK system is intensely formal and pushy in any case - children are pushed to read and write far earlier than in other countries.

If your daughter lived in most other european countries she would be in a kindergarten learnign through play until she was 7 - regardless of her 'reading' ability. There is no reason to believe that formal learning is what your 4 year old needs more than imaginative play or learning to share.

In my view we push children with 'formal' skills far too young and there is very little chance that your daughter will be in any way left bored - likely she will cheerfully do the work expected while it is the summer born boys and children who take to reading less quickly who end up hating school and being miserable.

btw. at 3.5 I would assume all children have plenty to offer and your child is no more 'bright' and special and in need of particular support than any other child.