How do I find out if my 4 year old is g&t officially?

[littletree]

Hello-

Returning to mumsnet after a 2 year hiatus and floored to find this topic present!

My 4 year old son is lovable, kooky, sweet and very bright. He began (mainly) teaching himself to read at 2 1/2 ('This is Jane', etc.). At 4 yrs. 2 months his reading level is now that of an 8 1/2 year old.

His speech and observations of the world are complex and far beyond any of his contemporaries. Pre-school teachers and parents are frequently commenting on how bright he is and what are we going to do about it.

I am very proud of the little fella but its not all peachy with him. He is also very clumsy and cries very easily at the slightest bump- although he is starting to overcome this with a lot of prodding. He shows zero interest in sport and I worry about his social skills. I invite plenty of children around to play and they do seem to play really well here. I am also a parent helper at his pre-school on a rota and it is an unique opportunity to observe social interaction. He is mainly on his own although does venture forth sometimes to play with other children but mainly the girls. He is also (I am told by nursery teachers) prone to correcting children and teachers alike on their grammar! I am worried about his likability and afraid of him being labelled a show-off and getting teased.

My dilemma is- how do I know if he is gifted and therefore requiring special help or just a quirky and bright little boy? How do I broach the subject with the staff of his primary school without seeming pushy? Is there a national scheme for assessing bright little people? He is about to start primary school at the local village C of E and they are very very good academically but we are wondering if we are doing the 'right thing'. Should we go the private route instead?

Help- and thank you for your input.

On the G&T issue, why don't you wait for them to broach the subject with you?

On the state/private debate, that's a bigger and broader question. You're suggesting that his needs would not be met at the "very very good academically" state school. That seems unlikely to me. Yes I do think that private schools offer more, in terms of music/sport etc but he doesn't sound sporty and you can make up the music side privately.

The first question to ask is whether or not you can afford private schools all the way through? Without depriving yourselves?

IMO at the tender age of 4 is is not very easy to identify G & T. Let him settle into primary school and see what they say. Don't mention anything to teachers - let them come to their own conclusions.

thank you very much for your quick response. Like many parenting issues, I find that I am mostly relaxed but have moments of panic (like this morning) when I think I'm not being pro-active enough. We did investigate a very good private primary and liked it immensely. We decided wait and see what happened at the local primary for the first few years and put him on a waitlist for year 3 should we not feel he is getting the right kind of stimulation. But, of course, being novice parents we are not sure what the right kind of stimulation is!

HB- we are not financially well-off but could always find the money by taking a bit from other areas of life. But as you say, we can always provide the extra lessons. I worry about the non-sporty tendencies because kids can be cruel and the horrible feelings attached to being the kid nobody wants on their team.

CBM- Yes, perhaps it is best to sit back and wait to hear what they say. I do realise that in reception life is more about play and social interaction. But, I suppose I just want to know if he is being understood and guided along appropriately.

I can understand your concern about lack of sportiness, but it won't necessarily be a problem. At school I was academically bright and utterly hopeless at sport, and funnily enough I found it worked quite well for me. In every other area I was always expected to excel, and it was quite a relief to me to have something that I was unequivocally rubbish at and could just muddle through in my own way. It also helped my relationship with my classmates - they liked being able to beat me at stuff! And yes, I was always picked last (and sometimes not at all ), but I never took that as a reflection of friendships - just my friends being pragmatic.

He sounds lovely! If I were you, I would not even look at anything related to G&T - there have been countless threads on this in the last few days - it's my opinion that avoiding a label would be the best thing for everyone!!!!

As far as what he needs - give him as many books to read as he can, do loads of interesting things with him, lots of cutting, sticking, drawing, messy painting, lots of socialising, you might like to do something like gymnastics with him. Ds1 and dd both do this, and it has helped them with SO many things - including concentration and even things like swimming - it really helps with co-ordination, things like trampolining etc.

Don't worry about him - he'll be fine, and he definitely sounds bright - the key is to keep things broad I think.

On another thread I cited two examples of highly gifted people I know or know of.

One - a friend of dh's - extraordinarily gifted composer, parents took out of school to concentrate on music, gave up composing and ran away from home at 16, took until mid 30s to get back on track.

The others - twins I used to babysit - amazingly bright, understanding A Level physics concepts at age 2-3 (honestly!!! I was doing A Level, and they were explaining concepts to me ) - parents sent them to state primary, private secondary (where dad is teacher), they did amazingly well, are lovely well balanced people, just gone to Oxford and Cambridge to do medicine and law.

You're usually told, aren't you?
If you're not told, they're not. That was what I understood, anyway.

Your DS sounds like my DD1. She is 10 now - was a very early reader (tested at a reading age of 12 when she was 6) and is dyspraxic. I suspect she is on the school's G&T register but I haven't asked, nor do I particularly care.
Personally my approach has been to focus on the areas where she has had problems - so she has had swimming lessons, dance lessons, gymnastics and so on to improve her balance and co-ordination. These have been really helpful in making sure that she can keep up with her peers - in her first couple of years at primary school she used to get very despondent because she found it so hard to cope in PE lessons and was always last in sports day races, but now because she has a high level of general fitness she is as good as the average child. Her fine motor control was also appalling, until the age of 8 her handwriting resembled a five-year-olds and she couldn't use cutlery or scissors properly. She has been doing violin lessons since age 7 and it may be coincidence but her fine motor skills took a huge leap after a year or so of those.
Personally, I think at primary school level, if it is a good school and you trust it, a nomally bright child, which is what your DS sounds like, will do fine academically, and I would tend to concentrate on boosting the areas where he does need some extra help, or in broadening and enriching his experiences through extra activities, expeditions and so on.
I know some people may disagree on this, but my view is that if you have a child who is strong academically, putting a lot of effort into bolstering their areas of strength is actually the wrong approach - concentrating on the areas they find difficult is more likely to produce a happy and well-balanced child. For instanc, my DD is the 'nose in a book all the time' type - I could have followed that and allowed her to do nothing but read, but I think in the long run it would have been detrimental to her.

little tree
you have just described my ds1 as he was 9 yrs ago
he is now 13
social skills were def key, even though he could/should have been in a class 2 years above for his socially immature side I fought to keep him with his peers.
He struggled through primary with bullying but liek you describe your ds, correcting folks does not go down too well, even now at 13 I see he just grates on some people

Let him get along, school will present few challenges and he will be identified as G+T in due course and hopefully academic provision will be made.
FWIw ds1 is in a top performing grammar school now in yr 9 and is in NAGTY and is predicted a* in all subjects.
But school has always been easy, we have let him travel a lot, experience a lot, the friends thing is getting better now... but we have had awful trouble at times
feel free to ctc me via email btw

Oh dear - sorry about all the typos.

UQD - our school has a policy of not telling parents their children are on G&T register (I know my DD3 is because a teacher accidentally let it slip to another parent!). I don't know whether this is common or not.

My DD's ex-school (a comprehensive) had a policy of not telling parents that their children were on the G&T register. They were rubbish at G&T.
DS'S school (a comprehensive) make no secret of their G&T list and are brilliant at it.

Co-incidence?

P.S. Rosa's advice is good.

What wonderfully supportive suggestions. Since posting, I have read a few other unhappy threads on this topic and was a bit worried I'd done the wrong thing posting...

I believe I am in agreement about trying to bolster the areas that he struggles in and help round him out. I have been taking him to a local gymnastics centre for a free hour of running around on the equipment and have him waitlisted for a class there. He really loves it and I have seen his balance improve tremendously. We will start swimming again as he is now showing interest in it. I took him to lessons when he was just 3 and he hated it and refused to go in the water. I dropped it and left it for him to come around to the idea again. I am certainly interested in getting him to learn an instrument but wonder if he is too young?

Rosa- DS is exactly the same with fine motor. Very awkward with scissors, pencils, etc. We are practicing these things...

ummm.... generally I don't get why they don't tell parents their children are g&t? Are they afraid of meddling?

littletree - is your ds your first child? If so, you are yet to experience the 'competitive parenting' that can exist outside the classroom. We get it, and it drives me mad - what reading level is the child on, what maths group, what page in the violin book etc. So that might be one reason for not telling parents. Another might be that because they have a 'top 10% rule', your child may be classified G&T for a bit, then as other children catch up, not be, which would be very hard to explain to a child - you used to be gifted and talented, but now you're only normal. And I guess some parents would be cross "If you'd worked harder, you'd still be G&T". And it avoids differentiating - "I'm cleverer than you - I'm G&T" or "You're a swot, only swots are G&T"

That may be a wild stab in the dark. But keeping the 'label' private is a good thing imo!

If you want to improve fine motor skills, could you get some of those gold stars writing workbooks? Ds1 loved them, and dd does, lots of tracing over squiggly lines etc.

yes, I suppose I see that point. As it is, I don't mention my son's reading to other parents unless they ask from seeing him in action. I am feeling very self-conscious about being seen to show-off. One reason I am hesitant about private education is because I have observed competetive parenting to be more rife...

Yes, this is our first child. We also have a two and a half year old boy that is very different in every respect. More 'normal' if you'll pardon the expression. Rufty tufty, bright speech, etc. But not a stand out from the crowd intellectually...

I'm sure if I looked on other threads I would find more on this, but, as its on my mind, I will put it out there:

Why are we, as a people so anti-clever?

Rosa - that is a brilliant post, by the way. I absolutely think that what you are doing is the right thing.

We are in a similar situation but from your comment re private ed but have lots of friends in state, the worst comments come from state side, the private parents seem more relaxed, they are selecting the appropriate next school for their child as per their need so accept where they are at.
Our state friends constantly ask/compare what DH is doing, one has gone so far as to say he is clever because you are paying for it! (That hurt) We never discuss what DH is doing and find it hard because you just want to say how proud you are of their achievements - and it is their achievement!
That said there are exceptions to the rule on both sides - the most competitive parent is the private school alpha mother with three children...

Of course I meant DS, if they wanted to know about DH that would be odd!

it will surface eventually at school, if he is G&T. I teach secondary, and we have a lot of G&T kids, and some of what you are saying rings bells, although obviously I teach older kids, but there are similarities. It is important that it is recognised as he needs to be stretched.

Kids and parents in our school know who is on register.

If you really want to know take him to an ed pscyh. You are legally entitled to to ask for an assessment from LEA, but (suprise suprise) they will avoid it at all costs (literally)

I know what you mean about being anti-clever - I don't think that is why G&T causes so much bad feeling on here - I think it is because sometimes parents want the label to bolster themselves, rather than to aid the child. And I DO think it is an unhelpful label.

I really wouldn't worry about school - a good teacher will stretch him in the appropriate areas, and tbh, being a good reader is the easiest thing to differentiate in a class, as they can just read appropriate books.

If it helps, I started reception (back in the bad old days of the 70s, when children weren't supposed to be individuals!) able to read fluently - my mum swears I had read Alice in Wonderland before I started school - I'm not quite sure I believe her, but she is absolutely adamant. I could also read music and play the recorder fluently (which is where my talents really were - I'm not a great reader now, just learnt early, but I am a pro musician).

In reception I WAS a bit bored, doing fishing for words etc, but I did also get other books to read, and was allowed to go down to the juniors to get 'real' books. I did have lots of friends,and wasn't bullied or anything. I'm very glad I went to a 'normal' school, not a private school, as I think that could exaggerate any idyosyncracies (sp?) that your ds may have.

My DD is 2.5yrs with a reading age of 8.7yrs, we approached the local school and the Head told us they could not accomodate her , so we looked at another school who told us roughly the same thing. We have since found a private school for her where they focus on play alone and none of this 'letter of the week' stuff whilst the kids are in Nursery. They also have PE everyday which to me is great. I also like the idea of them having lots of music, drama and art. I want DD to be a well rounded child and in a school where they focus on her weaknesses not just on academics (which she loves). In his day to day life just make sure he gets as many experiences as possible and work on his weak points rather than his skills, they will progress nicely on their own.

I agree with everything Rosa has written - spot on.

My ds1 (10) took a long time to learn to swim, but is now a great swimmer: and his swimming is by far his greatest achievement that he is proudest of, because it was difficult. (He is above average in swimming, but not the best in the class by a long way.)

It is very important that bright children have the opportunity to persevere and struggle with things that they do not find easy. Otherwise do not learn the skills of keeping trying when things are difficult. This is where various sporting activities or learning a musical instrument can be very useful.

I agree with everything Rosa has written - spot on.

My ds1 (10) took a long time to learn to swim, but is now a great swimmer: and his swimming is by far his greatest achievement that he is proudest of, because it was difficult. (He is above average in swimming, but not the best in the class by a long way.)

It is very important that bright children have the opportunity to persevere and struggle with things that they do not find easy. Otherwise do not learn the skills of keeping trying when things are difficult. This is where various sporting activities or learning a musical instrument can be very useful.

I agreed with Rosa so much I posted twice