Okay folks - I am aware that I may be opening a can of worms here but why does this topic piss so many people off?

[Theclosetpagan]

I mean if someone has deemed a child G+T (or is it G or T) why is it that they seem to be flamed when they post about any difficulties here?

If the label has come from outside the family and the family struggle why can't they post here saying "Help" without people leaping in to say "your child sounds normal to me"

For what it's worth I don't have a child labelled as G+T but am glad I don't given the response some posters get to this topic.

Surely it's okay for some children to be extra bright. Or is it that there is distrust of this label?

Just interested really.

I'm responding to mb there

I worked it out in the end

Yes. And great fun it is too. But not much of your actual teaching going on.

I've resorted to using coloured tiddliwinks for genes for tomorrow! Gawd help us all.

Just a point on info on universities re Tellusmater's post - most no longer take bright children early. Too much hassle re them being officially a child and having to CRB check everyone if they're under 18, plus it so often turns out badly if they're bright but not mature enough.

oh, that is interesting. I hadn't thought about the CRB stuff.

I still stand by what I say though, the numbers of children who need this are exceptionally small, And sadly 20% of the kids in the school I teach are on the sEN regester, and many of those need the help more

What is the current % going onto to study at degree and PHD level as a matter of interest ?

I don't understand why anyone would expect a school to be able to cater to every aspect of need for a complex child whether they're complex because of SN or complex because of great giftedness.

DS1 has extremely complex educational needs. He attends an excellent special school but I do not expect them to be able to cater for all his needs. We do that in an hour every day after school at home (and believe me its a damn sight harder to teach ds1 than facilitate learning for a bright kid). We took video of his home programme to his annual reveiw and the staff were really impressed. one of the first things they said was 'we can't do that here', and I explained I didn;t expect them to and the programme was designed to complement school.

I am failing to understand why the same shouldn't apply to complex because of giftedness kids. I know which I'd rather be sorting out a home programme for (and I know which would take up far less of my time).

of all kids?

they are still workingtowards 50% arn't they?

Oh yes, we had a 17 year old last year and had to chase around to find someone who was CRB checked

and could act as tutor for the month or so until she turned 18.

Apologies if this has already been said, but I don't really get this 'bright children need special treatment as much as SEN' 'No they don't' argument.
Surely bright children do need something extra as there are lots of schools that don't provide it. I'm sure you differentiate very well in your classes, MB, but there are lots of teachers who probably aren't as good as you. However, it's not going to cost anything like as much as provision for SEN.
So the amount of money for which you could provide SOMETHING useful for a load of bright kids would just be a fraction of what it would cost to cater for that number of kids with SENs. So can't we just provide a small amount of money to G&T and a whole load more to other SENs and everyone be happy?

Yes just found it looks like 50% by 2010 is not realistic. Apparently in 2000 it was 30% . So logically a third of those ought to be the 10% G and T assuming all follow their interest to degree level ?

Well, we're all going to have to do CRB checks because so many Scottish students start at 17. And of course the opportunities for abuse are so plentiful when you are lecturing to 240 students...

But it's not just the lecturers who have to be checked, allegedly, it's the other students too, because an 18 year old is an adult and a 17 year old is a child.
Unless common sense prevails, of course.

But there's nowhere near enough money for SN anyway. So you would be taking away from someone. If disruptive (because of lack of appropriate support) children were properly catered for the teacher would have whole load more time (& sanity) to provide extension work.

Giften children have exactly the same 'right's in law as children with SN. They have the right to access a 'suitable' education. If they're not accessing a suitable education (not the best a suitable one) then their parents have access to the same complaints/appeals procedures as children with SEN. And they can pay the same amount (it cost a friend 13 grand to go to tribunal to get a programme funded for her son, plus over 20 grand to run it for a year to prove it works, she's not rich).

Kathy I think bright children were catered for by setting and streaming in the old days but the advent of pcness means the wheel has had to be reinvented and has been called something rather silly

Yep agree that setting should be brought back. I think it is still used in quite a few schools.

kind of you to say so cathy[ smile], I'm not sure that I agree.

Most school schemes of work have differentiaition built into them.

The current one we work with, Exploring Science, has top end differention built in, along with extra stuff for SEN. And the possibility is always there for children to be accelerated (I have personal doubts about the use of this, and feel the kids would be better getting breadth of understanding, not simple acceperation)

There already is a pot of money going to G and T, I don't know how much, as I just do the classroom stuff. We already offer G and T enrichment, for the kids in our school and the surrounding primaries.

But these kids needs are nothing like the SEN that we see.

A reasonably compitent teacher can cope with the clever, it takes so much more work to try to help the children who are struggling.

they simply need the help so much more. I have no particular beef about stopping the G and T scheme, but it is just plain not true to say that G and T needs are on the same level as SEN.

For the odd, very rare child who this is the case for, the answer already lies in the system. the ultra, ultra bright child will often have an IEP. For the vast majority of G and T this isn't needed

But why pay to fight a system that can't/won't provide ? Why not spend the money on private ed instead

My apologies for that Kathy.

However, I think there is funding for G&T provision in schools. All schools are certainly expected to have G&T provision.

When I was HOD I had money to spend under that umbrella, as did the G&T coordinator.

However, I have not taught for a couple of years and I'm not sure how it works now.

we set and stream for all the core NC subjects, and do so within the first half term of school entry. AFAIK all the local secondary schools do the same, comprehensive and selective

the money is still there Tellusmater. I don't know the nuts and bolts of it. Different schools run it in different ways

Kathy I don't think that argument evolved in that way, there was a Mum who thought her childs needs were the same as SN certainly, but I don't think anyone really argues that G&T kids shouldn't get any help, motre that the levels of urgency were differing in a limited financial situation, iyswim.

However, have almost completed a dissertation proposal tonight AND just had a visit to my ds1 (HFA) of a schoolmate (ADHD) so my brain has ceased functioning for the foreseeable future (I'm good amtes with his Mum- the kdisa re NOT compatible LOL)

was that to me camm? There wasn't a private school that would cater to his needs (severe autism). The home programmes are between 20 and 30 K per year to run. By getting long term funding you actually save money even if you have to pay 13k to bring the case to tribunal.

He has responded extremely well to the programme.

I've done it a slightly different way. Taken the state education on offer (although to be honest my son's school wouldn't have been at all suitable for their child) and then topped up with after school specialist therapists (actually we share 2 of the therapists).

has to be said that her son is doing far better than mine, although some of that may be due to the particular expression of their disabilities.

Thanks for that gess

Actually there are a couple of private schools such as Treehouse (300 miles away from us- set up by parents who had no access to suitable education for their children) but you often need to go to tribunal to get a place there anyway (it's not a private school many people can afford to pay for)

OK MB. I guess I was basing it more on what school was like when I was there than what happens today.
Peachy - thanks for explaining.