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Siblings of the G&T - help me know what to say to DD

66 replies

Balloonsandbunting · 30/01/2020 17:27

Hi all
I haven't posted in this topic before, and I hope I'm in the right place.

I have 2 children - DS5 and DD6. We've lived in Germany for the last 18 months, and the children are at local German school. After a rocky start, they've picked up the language, and are both doing very well. DD is sporty and bright, but has struggled a bit socially. DS is not sporty, but is very popular with the other children, and extremely smart.

Today, we got a call from the school saying they'd like to think about moving DS up a year, into, you've guessed it, his sister's year. He's certainly a clever boy, and, having been so excited about going to school, was getting a bit disappointed in it, which we certainly didn't want. I'll have a whole host of concerns and questions about it if it does happen, but my concern right now is about his sister. She's going to be pretty confused by it, I think, and they're proposing putting him in the parallel class to hers, which is the class she'd really like to be in herself. I don't want him to steal her friends (which I've seen him do before) and I don't want him to be demonstrably ahead of her (which he is at home, but it's never been "officially recognised", if you know what I mean.) They're two totally different children, and I just don't want her EVER to feel that he's something special and she's not, you know? I feel very strongly that "clever" only gets you so far - what's really important is working hard and being true to yourself. But I feel like that might sound hollow to a child with a little brother who's being placed on a par with her.

So my question is, if you have one child who is G&T, how does the other one feel, and how do you talk to them about it? Any advice is most welcome. I feel like this will come up at bedtime!

OP posts:
balletpanda · 30/01/2020 19:40

Just an alternate perspective: I was put up a year in a british school in the early 2000s. I went to Cambridge for medicine and academically did well but was also very good socially. Thankfully I wasn't uber tiny nor really did it seem to have any negative effect on me. I loved school.

However. Universities wouldn't all take me underage; I was forced to take a gap year. I had an absolute nightmare accessing work experience age 15/16 and it did stress me out. I had to wait for ages until I could go out with my friends at 18. I also hated the thought of being put back down a year once I was older. It's actually much more disruptive to put a child back down once they're older and certainly over the age of about 10 or 11, the thought terrified me. It would've really upset me and so bear that in mind if for whatever reason he struggles to keep up later on.

Obviously this is in the british system and not in Germany but it's just a perspective from someone on the other side of being put up a year!

Good luck in whatever you decide.

CatteStreet · 30/01/2020 19:41

(Sorry again re multiple posts) There's always a broad age range in German school classes due to how common it is for children to be held back a year or also to have their school start delayed. Ds2's year 6 class last year had children in it who were 13 going on 14 when he was 10, about to turn 11, at the start of the year. (We moved to a different state soon after he skipped and because of the different Stichtage he actually ended up in his 'correct' year, but as one of the very youngest, if not the youngest). Your ds certainly sounds a socially confident child, but gaps will open up when things start moving towards the pre-teen years.

I'm not sure how to put this without sounding mean - it's clear you thoroughly enjoy your ds and he does sound a very enjoyable child - but I think it would be as well now, while he's still so young (and realistically could yet develop in any direction), to try and step away from the idea of his specialness rather than letting it build. Of course, help him reach his potential, enjoy his delightful characteristics, but try and think of him as just a child with a certain set of delightful characteristics which happen to be in socially prized arenas.

policeandthieves · 30/01/2020 20:05

My older sister was put up a year and it was OK while she was in primary but more difficult in secondary - she was very popular and sociable but looked young for her age anyway and this was exacerbated by puberty.
It made socialising out of school difficult and she did take a year out before university
We were approached about this with one of our children and chose to keep him in his current year and I think looking back it was the right thing to do. It wasn't at all about the academic work more about other relationships - he wasn't particularly sporty and was quite small and I think that is all magnified by being over a year younger than everyone else ( he was young for the year as well)
Find interesting things outside of school and take the pressure off your DD

Balloonsandbunting · 30/01/2020 20:10

I think it would be as well now, while he's still so young (and realistically could yet develop in any direction), to try and step away from the idea of his specialness rather than letting it build.
You're quite right, and you don't sound mean at all. I also think this potential move would make him more "special", and we all want him to be, and feel, completely ordinary! FWIW, my husband was similar as a child, and although he's a wonderful, kind man, is not a particularly high flyer. You've been hugely helpful, Catte, thank you.

OP posts:
CatteStreet · 30/01/2020 20:17

Flowers I know well how tricky negotiating this system can be, even when there's nothing out of the ordinary going on Grin

I take it Hessen has secondary transfer after year 4? Which might mean him transferring at 9 (if my maths is right)?

CatteStreet · 30/01/2020 20:18

^^ if he were moved up a year

Yurona · 30/01/2020 20:19

In my experience (i’m german) moving kids up in the year above (or down) is fairly normal. Work doesn’t get differentiated in class like in the uk.
I would emphasize your daughters sporty side !

12help34please56 · 30/01/2020 20:24

Such an interesting thread! You've all brought something that I'm merrily skirting around in my head to the forefront - I have dc in consecutive years in the UK and they're currently in a mixed year group. I was told this week that the youngest is being moved up to the next year's phonics group - it's not the same teacher that my eldest has but the same level. At present my eldest has not questionned this but similar to you OP my youngest appears to have a flair for pretty much anything he tries and the personality to go with it!

I'm wondering how long I've got until my eldest picks up on it - I hope that we're not highlighting it at home (I aspire to be convey the same attitude as Daisy's parents) but I can't control the comments or actions of others.

So following with interest here!

Balloonsandbunting · 30/01/2020 20:30

12help that's exactly it! I wanted to be prepared for when it came up, rather than being blindsided and saying all sorts of things I regretted. (Or worse, going on and on, until DD's eyes glaze over, poor child.)

OP posts:
Serenschintte · 30/01/2020 20:34

@Balloons yes it’s the same here. Hands off, parents not super welcome and not very pastoral - at least in a British sense

12help34please56 · 30/01/2020 20:41

Yeah it's really making me think!

Is there an option at the school to let him spend time in both year groups- not sure how it works in Germany but here they hsve the core maths and reading stuff that he could maybe be put with the older group and then topic work, dinasours, the environment etc or PE that he'd be with his own age group with?

In terms of managing the older ones feelings the one thing I can think to do is say to your dd how great it is that he's got such a good big sister because he must have picked up so much from her before he even started school!

Keep us posted with how it goes

Balloonsandbunting · 30/01/2020 21:05

12help that option is the one I’ll be pushing if it comes to it. I just can’t see why that wouldn’t be workable, at least some of the time.

That’s a great idea about him picking up stuff from her- and it has the benefit of being true!

OP posts:
TooDamnSarky · 30/01/2020 21:10

I'd be asking the school what their long term plan is for your ds.
Do you plan to stay in their current system?
Moving a child ahead a year can cause major issues down the line as they often end up repeating a year at some point down the line. And if they do stay in the year group with older kids then the puberty years can be very tricky.
FWIW I was moved ahead and with hindsight it mainly had a negative impact on me.

Clymene · 30/01/2020 21:49

I was put up a year at school (so eg instead of being one of the eldest in year 3, I was by far the youngest in year 4). I did some GCSEs when I was 14 and the rest when I was just 15.

It did me no favours whatsoever. I had no problem with keeping up with the work but emotionally I was behind the curve and my teenage/early years at FE were really difficult.

My parents thought it was wonderful that I got such good grades when I was so young I really wish they had insisted I stay back a year.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 31/01/2020 11:05

I wish I had read this thread years ago! So thank you for starting it. So much good advice here. I agree with the difficulties of being a different age group to the rest of the class being an issue, one of my DDs was the youngest in her year, and when they got older (teens) it was more noticeable.

Having said that, I posted quickly last night as I was going out, but wanted to say it really really does get easier in lots of ways as they get older, especially for DC that aren't that confident yet like your DD. My (not the one above) DD was one of those DC (she has SN) that didn't get invited to a single party all throughout school, and it was heartbreaking especially as her siblings were always going to them (I could cry thinking about it now!). But today she has lots of friends, travels independently, has lots of interests and is talented in a sport and plays at a very high level. (Her siblings come and watch her and cheer when they can make it!)

The academic difference of course was noticeable, if you have a DC coming home with As with no effort and someone coming home with Es after they have worked very hard - it's difficult! I got burnt to a crisp on MN once Grin for saying we rewarded effort more than attainment, but it's true and each DC knew what the best they were capable of achieving and expected to achieve it (even if it was an E) and if they got that we celebrated the E as well as the higher results and grades.

If your DD is good at swimming this is definitely worth encouraging, and praising her in earshot of DS, as you praise him in front of her for academic results (worded clumsily, hope it makes sense). My DDs sport definitely made her feel like she was good at something (and it sounds awful to say better than her siblings Wink but it is true, and it's important they feel they're not "behind" their siblings in absolutely everything!) Because her siblings were saying well done to her when they won a match, she was able to say well done to them when they got good results and there wasn't too much comparison/envy etc.

If that makes us sound like the Waltons, we really aren't Grin but it is easier when they are older and can understand things a bit more, and realise we are all good at different things and the effort you put in is just as important as the marks you get.

I'm sure your DCs will be fine, whatever you choose will be best for them, as you're so aware of the issues and are taking time and effort to make the right choice. (And there is so much good advice on MN!) Decisions like these are so hard, I really feel for you and wanted to say it's so worth it - when they are adults things like this feel so far aware and you forget the stress and remember the good bits!

brilliotic · 21/02/2020 17:00

I was the middle of three children born within three years. A few months before my older sibling started school (in a Germanic system), my younger sibling died, which was obviously a traumatic experience for the whole family. It was probably due to these circumstances that my older sibling struggled at school, despite being extremely intelligent. And so when the decision came as to when I was to start (which was largerly the parents' choice), I was 'kept back' a year so as not to be in the subsequent year to my sibling. I started age 7 (and a bit) rather than age 6 (and a bit), so that if my sibling was ever 'relegated' (made to repeat a year), we would not end up in the same year. So the decision was made based on my sibling's (somewhat hypothetical) needs rather than on my own.

Being very academic myself, and much more 'school-shape' than my sibling (sometimes being younger protects you from trauma a bit, just as in your children's case, being younger might have made the transition to Germany easier), I absolutely coasted through school. There were at several points discussions about me skipping a year but I never did. I was just always 'best in year', up to and including at university.

I do think that in such a case you have to watch out for issues around perfectionism - which can be a real life impediment - especially in girls. But on the upside, there were many benefits to being essentially 'a year below' despite being a high achiever. I got to pick all my selective schools/universities, with barely any effort. Leaving me with the time for an international 'career' in my chosen 'sport' (chess) on the side. At age 18, I would miss three entire weeks of school for a competition, return and do well on all tests. That (chess) is also what taught me how to work/study/revise, and that there is always someone out there who is 'better' than you.

My sibling and I were always fiercly proud and protective of each other. And despite my massively better academic record ('straight-A-student' vs 'drop-out'), I happily acknowledge my sibling's academic intelligence as probably higher than mine.
So I think it is possible to make it ok to 'keep back' the younger child, even if it is mainly for the sake of the older child.
But recognise that each child has their needs, and they won't just be solved by not accelerating the younger. The older will still be(come) aware of the younger's abilities. The older still needs special attention regarding the transition to Germany, which apparently has been less easy on her. She will still need something to shine in, something that is 'hers', and recognition.
And the younger will need (at some point) to learn how to work at something, to deal with things that don't just come easily instantly, will need to avoid the pitfalls of perfectionism, and will need something where he can experience the immense satisfaction of achieving something 'hard'. You cannot really expect school to provide this - not if he skips a year nor of he stays put.

Completely separately, I have a Swiss friend who's eldest was put forward to skip a year. Ultimately, they decided against it, he got to join a 'G&T' club (one a week, skipping a regular class instead), and he has done fine so far. What I'm saying is that you as a parent have a lot of input here - it is not simply the school deciding.

All that said, if you were to decide on acceleration, then the end of the first year of a two-year Einführungsstufe would be the perfect time. I imagine it would be fairly frictionless, socially and emotionally, for him. The whole point of these Einführungsstufe (they're widespread in Switzerland now) is that children move on to 'proper' school when they are ready, not when they reach a random age number.
Accordingly, there will often be a wide age range in each year group, with some children older than the main cohort, and some younger. (Whereas in England you have a wide range of abilities in each year group, with some children years ahead of the main cohort and others years behind.)
And because it is a normal thing, it is not 'age' that determines school year, this is something that could be more easily discussed with /explained to both children, than if you were in an English system where the vast majority of children are in their age-specific cohort. So I think that too would be possible, and probably most in line with the local 'system'. I do tend to think it is often more pragmatic to go with the system and make up for the downsides, than to go against the system and always be fighting on all fronts. E.g. if you decide against acceleration, don't expect the school to massively step up re differentiation or such.

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