Siblings of the G&T - help me know what to say to DD

[Balloonsandbunting]

Hi all
I haven't posted in this topic before, and I hope I'm in the right place.

I have 2 children - DS5 and DD6. We've lived in Germany for the last 18 months, and the children are at local German school. After a rocky start, they've picked up the language, and are both doing very well. DD is sporty and bright, but has struggled a bit socially. DS is not sporty, but is very popular with the other children, and extremely smart.

Today, we got a call from the school saying they'd like to think about moving DS up a year, into, you've guessed it, his sister's year. He's certainly a clever boy, and, having been so excited about going to school, was getting a bit disappointed in it, which we certainly didn't want. I'll have a whole host of concerns and questions about it if it does happen, but my concern right now is about his sister. She's going to be pretty confused by it, I think, and they're proposing putting him in the parallel class to hers, which is the class she'd really like to be in herself. I don't want him to steal her friends (which I've seen him do before) and I don't want him to be demonstrably ahead of her (which he is at home, but it's never been "officially recognised", if you know what I mean.) They're two totally different children, and I just don't want her EVER to feel that he's something special and she's not, you know? I feel very strongly that "clever" only gets you so far - what's really important is working hard and being true to yourself. But I feel like that might sound hollow to a child with a little brother who's being placed on a par with her.

So my question is, if you have one child who is G&T, how does the other one feel, and how do you talk to them about it? Any advice is most welcome. I feel like this will come up at bedtime!

I don't have experience about moving year groups, but personal experience of being the non g&t child in a family.

My sister is a genius. She is honestly the cleverest person I have ever met. She flew through school obviously, straight A*s no effort Etc. I am average. I worked hard at school for just normal middle of the road grades. My sister was also very musically gifted whereas I don't have any musical talent at all.

I am so proud of my sister and all that she has achieved, I boast about her to everyone because I love her and I am so glad of the professional success that she has now had as a grown up.

I think a large part of how positive our relationship has been is how my parents treated us. There was never any pressure on either of us about school or hobbies. School work and grades weren't really talked about at home, but were all celebrated the same (s for example she didn't get extra treats etc for having gotten better marks than me). My parents definitely instilled in us that it is who you are as a person, how you treat other people and that you try your best that matters.

I don't know how I would Have felt if we were in the same year group... It probably would have been harder to avoid direct comparisons? But if you do decide to let him move up, I would definitely look at ways you can help your daughter pursue her own interests, and celebrate their differences.

No specific advice but I do recommend the book ‘Siblings Without Rivalry’

I have found this a brilliant resource.

The classwork was still not especially challenging
Yep, this is also worth mentioning. Obviously I've seen the work he'd be doing when it comes home with DD. It wouldn't challenge him either. So it could potentially be for nothing, at least in the short term.

Hi @Balloonsandbunting I’m in Switzerland- similar education system to Germany.
I’d suggest posting on the overseas board and also any Facebook groups for English speakers in Germany.
In Switzerland it’s not that unusual for kids to be kept back a year. But you have the opposite issue. I think my concerns would be is his German good enough after only 18 months. He might look fluent but in reality it takes much longer to be really fluent in a language and will he be disadvantaged in his marks on his school work.
Also as you mention he is smaller I’d be concerned about the bigger kids picking on him if he is singled out for different treatment from being moved up.
Of course if he is bored and getting amazing grades accords the board then it’s more straightforward
It would definitely be worth asking if there are any years when they can’t repeat. Here it’s 6th class and that’s the one that leads on to the different schools they get to go to depending on their academic performance
As for your daughter I think I would keep it straightforward and put the onus on the school if he is moved up.
And I’d share your concerns about how she will react with her teacher.
And help her develop her friendships away from her brother. Is she in local the swim team - it’s a good way of making friends outside of school sometimes.

Pottering which child looks like your favourite? This is my worst nightmare!!! She's terribly sensitive anyway, and I really want to do right by her.

worldweary yes, we are half-planning a return to the UK, and certainly wouldn't rule it out. But the education systems are so different that I don't forsee a problem either way. If anything, they start soooooo slowly here that it would benefit him to go "back" a year on our return.

I would strongly recommend not moving him up. I moved up a year as a child and it was only a few weeks before I caught up and was bored again. I don't believe it benefits children at all; its just a lazy shortcut by a school that wants to avoid differentiating work to challenge the brightest children. And if your DS isn't sporty he will really struggle at sports when he is more than a full year younger than the biggest, fastest strongest children.

Have you considered dance or gymnastics for both of them? It will give DD a chance to do well and its a bit of a brain stretcher for your DS.

daisy My parents definitely instilled in us that it is who you are as a person, how you treat other people and that you try your best that matters.
This is inspirational, and absolutely what I am aiming for. I hope I do as good a job as your parents obviously did.

serenschintte His German is pretty extraordinary (much better than his sister's ) but that's what I've kept saying to him - if you're not learning anything in e.g. maths, there's always more German to learn.

I don't know how it is in Switzerland, but here, we're not very welcome at the school, except when summoned! And the teachers don't seem THAT concerned about their social development. So I doubt that DD would get any particular support from her teacher in this scenario. And that bothers me too.

It's good advice to post on some local groups - I will try that, thank you.

'You said yourself you’ve seen him pinch her Friends in the past. He would be going into the class that she wants to go in. It makes a massive statement about her ability vs his, especially if he overtakes her in the work they are doing, which will be clearly obvious as they are in the same year. The fact that you are willing to do it at her expense may not sit well with her in future years, so self esteem takes a further battering. It may not be true, but from her point of view which child looks like your favourite?'

This.

Where are you in Germany that your ds is in school at 5? Are there any mixed-year classes?

'Überspringen' is definitely a thing in Germany, btw, though it's not common (much less common than repeating a year!). In fact, my ds2 did it (complex and not all academic reasons) and in retrospect it wasn't a great solution.

CatteStreet ha, I had that in the OP originally, but it got too long. We are in a small village in Hessen, where they have what they call an Eingangstufe, in which they effectively have 2 years to complete the work that they do in the Erste Klasse in other places. If we lived anywhere else, he would still be at Kindergarten, which I'm sure would bring its own set of challenges. There are no mixed year classes.

I do notice (sorry for multiple posts) your language when talking about your ds - exceptional, very, extreme, and so on. It does come across here that you are of the view that he is something pretty special all round - I don't mean that nastily at all, just as an observation and something to think about.

My DS2, aged 11, is 22 months younger than DS1. DS1 is a bright kid (top sets at secondary) and gets on fine, but DS2 'overtook' him academically, particularly in maths, in about Yr 1/2 (Scottish system P2/3). DS2 just 'gets' stuff, and on top of that is naturally a hard worker. He's an obvious academic outlier. Plus DS2 is sportier, more physically able, and more popular & socially adept.

DS1 does find it frustrating. He has been through patches of being quite angry about the situation - he says it is Not Fair. The kind of things I say are

• DS2 being clever doesn't mean anything about whether you are clever or not. Imagine if DS2 was Einstein, or if he had difficulties such that he couldn't learn to read. In either case, it wouldn't change what you (DS1) can do. And in either case it wouldn't change my love for DS2 or DS1.
• DS2 does well. All you can say is Good for him! Don't try and pretend it's not happening.
• I try & praise effort and notice good thinking/trying in both of them - not just results
• I tell DS1 that I have high expectations of him, but NEVER say that my expectations are based on comparison with DS2, and vv
• I just hang out with both of them, so that they know I'm there for them

We do try and avoid shining a spotlight on very direct competitive comparison where feasible - e.g. they sometimes get entered for the same maths challenge things at school. I will congratulate them both when they bring me their results, but we will engineer it so we are not discussing them alongside each other. I've also quietly not gone along to stuff like cricket club end of year awards thing when I know in advance that DS2 has won trophies but DS1 has got nothing, despite same attendance from both.

Luckily for us, DS2 is generally pretty sensitive to his brothers feelings. He also gets the 'not fair' feeling that he is 'different' from his peers and is sometimes quite upset by that - I think that gives him some insight/sensitivity on the sibling relationship.

We haven't moved school year for DS2 - he's already youngest in year and physically small (smallest boy in a large year), and he's socially competent but not ahead of his peers. We've never asked to move him up, teachers have never suggested. We have moved schools (moved both children), to a much larger school on same site as a secondary. Bigger school provided better differentiation opportunities, more space for each child to be themselves, and DS2 gets some secondary teacher input at primary.

So I had a couple of very clever siblings and so did my DP. In my view your concern about how to try and make things ok for your DD is half if not all of the battle. My parents let it be known that my siblings were better and more valued than me and that is what had a huge negative impact on me. You are not doing that so I would hope that will negate any bad feelings coming from what the school situation delivers.

My DSis was a teacher in a school that moved kids up and down years and her view was that it was almost always a mistake for social reasons and often backfired. The new classmates will resent the new younger very bright kid and that could lead to unpleasantness.

Hm - re the Eingangsstufe. I haven't experienced that system - my ds moved from a mixed y1/2 class (after 1 year) straight into y3. Did he 'have' to start, or was he a Kann-Kind? I am wondering whether part of his dazzling effect has a lot to do with the gentleness of the setting, if that makes sense.

There were also mutterings about my ds1 and 'überspringen' - we never did it as he was always youngish in the year. He is very much the bright academic type and, tbh, hasn't always been particularly challenged, although he doesn't exactly seek out the challenges in the academic sphere. He's 14 now with strong interests in particular areas - if they're bright they do find their stride.

CatteStreet Guilty as charged. He's very likable, and will sit and do a thousand-piece jigsaw. And I'll admit, it's nice to have this recognition that it's not just me that thinks he's special - I realise that's not a particularly acceptable thing to say, arrgh.

Think there is research/writing that putting academically bright DC up a year often isn’t a good thing, for them.

CatteStreet the setting is very gentle, it's true, and it's a very slow start. But, as LtGreggs says above, he just "gets" things, works hard, and is very keen to learn. He had to start, although he's among the youngest in the year, which is also a concern of mine. He won't be 6 until the end of April, and the children in the year above will start to turn 8 in July.

So you wouldn’t be declining the school’s suggestion because of concerns for your DD, but because it’d likely not be best for DS’s education or social development.

Can you encourage the school to put her in the parallel class and him her current class? Then they all get something?!

LtGreggs that's all SUCH good advice. I might print it out and keep it in my bedside drawer!

There's a lot of talk about Binnendifferenzierung in German educational circles - it's very much the thing of the moment - but German schools, IME, cope best with homogeneity, on a systemic level, and so moving the child to fit the system often seems a better (or more obvious) solution to teachers trained in that system than does flexing the system to suit the child. I could tell you hair-raising stories of my older two's experiences in English lessons My ds2 (of the skipped year) is now at a non-state (church) Gymnasium partly because they tend to have less rigid ideas about what a 'bright' child is. I am assuming your ds' teachers will not be thinking so much of 'stretching' your ds in the way a UK teacher might but more of maximum homogeneity within the classes, as they (generally) see this as the best way to support individual as well as collective learning. They certainly won't be thinking of the potential impact on your dd. Pastoral care is often still decades behind here, sadly.

X several posts If he's already one of the youngest in the year he's in now, I would not be doing this, no way. Ds2 was among the oldest when he skipped.

How gifted do you think he is? Will being one school year ahead bring viable benifits, and be the right level for him (in which case I'd be surprised if they couldn't deal with him in the age appropriate class), or just be closing the gap, and actually be should be several years ahead, in which case how much benifit will it bring, especially given the potential social and sibling issues?