G&T more common in maths?

[LetItGoToRuin]

In this thread, SirFred commented that it seems more common for children to be ‘gifted’ in maths. S/he went on to speculate as to whether this is because “that is the area where time and practice are less important than in others”. I thought this statement deserved its own thread.

Some questions to get us going:

• Is your child gifted across most/all academic subjects, or do they favour one strongly?
• Did their highest ability subject change through childhood?
• Which subject stood out soonest at school?
• Which subject causes the most problems, in terms of school providing adequate differentiation for your gifted child?

I think with maths it is far easier to spot and also to develop at home. Literacy the child may need to write ( a different skill set to reading and verbal communication) as well to get real recognition. To differentiate with writing in a class room it is easier as a very able child may run with an idea or story ( if writing suits them as well).

Okay.... for ds1 and myself maths stood out first. However, science at secondary ( and earlier) took over interest wise and then ability.... I think sometimes it is when things are introduced . Now the internet is brilliant with TED talks and videos of experiments. Also Amazon to purchase supplies......

DD (Y2, may not be ‘gifted’) excels at literacy. She’s good at maths too, but it doesn’t excite her. Literacy has been her strength since nursery.

We’ve not had real problems at school so far. This may be for one or more of the following reasons:

1. DD’s not really G&T
2. Very good teacher in Y2 (admittedly, DD was bored in Y1)
3. It’s easier to differentiate in written subjects than in maths

I think it’s mostly the latter. Ask the class to write a recount, and the more able ones (if self-motivated) will naturally write to a higher standard. Ask the class to solve three mathematical equations, and the more able ones will do it quickly and easily, and be bored.

Yoyo: ”I think with maths it is far easier to spot and also to develop at home”

This has not been our experience. DD was always interested in books, and wanted to know what everything said from an early age (posters, labels, signs). Reading together daily at bedtime led to a love of language, and leads to so many questions about what things mean, how else you might describe something, why this writer described something differently from that one etc.

Of course, we counted steps, weighed ingredients, and do try to integrate maths into daily life. It just hasn’t captured DD’s interest in quite the same way.

They, and we, are all different!

I think-foregive me-that maths is something that feels almost magical to people who aren't good at it, so finding a child who can do this magical thing is very exciting. And it is easy to measure. You can easily tell whether a child is better at maths than their peers. It's also harder to broaden the curriculum for a child gifted in maths- with English a child can do the same stuff as everyone else only more so.

DS is gifted in all subjects, more so in maths. He likes that there is a definite right answer not open to interpretation.

DS (age 12) is very good at all academic subjects, but particularly maths. Last year he came in the top 0.1% of children who entered the primary maths challenge.

As a small child (age 5), his ability was first noticed (by the school) in reading.

No major problems really, his primary and secondary school have both been reasonably good at providing differentiating work for him. And he's not a child who makes a fuss about being a bit bored every now and then.

Kids are never brilliant at literacy type stuff. They can have reading accuracy or reading comprehension ages that are very much higher than their chronological age, but I this is generally just about having a massive vocabulary. Kids just don't write great works of literature even if they are super bright. I think it must be developmental and reflect that while you can hothouse academic skills, it is almost impossible to hothouse the emotional maturity or life knowledge required to write a really interesting book.

So in that way, i would agree that g & t is more common in maths than in literacy..

Neolara I think you are right about maturity for a lot of subjects. I think maths can over shadow other abilities. Reading in nursery etc to his friends seemed like nothing (we were bemused when his teacher bothered to mention it). The vast majority of people read and can read to a decent level. It doesn't matter when you start to read it is what you read that can shape you.

May be as parents we are influenced by what we perceive as important as well. I am more comfortable ( academically) with maths/science so did not notice ( to the same extent) any achievements out with these academics fields.

At our school (not sure if this is entire curriculum issue), 'proper'' comprehension of English starts a bit later, maybe in year 2-3. So maybe children who are very, very good at English, writing, reading, don't have a chance to show their talent before year 3-4. DS1 (who is very average in everything) got fantastic marks in SATS in Reading (118) and we felt like awful parents because we didn't realise he was so good at it!!

However, DS2 who is G&T in maths has been able to 'demonstrate' his understanding of maths concepts earlier in his education. This was identified in Reception with teacher saying he was 'very good at maths' and year 1 saying he was 'very talented', by year 3 they were saying he was 'genius level'.

Maybe it's because it's more 'black and white' as a subject, you either have the answer or you don't? I know that DS2 could demonstrate his ability by showing that he could come up with the answer using different methods than the teacher had been showing them, I am not sure the same process applies in comprehension?

I agree with Twofish that maths is more black and white. Easy to show the ability.
My ds looked like he was really good at literacy too when he started school, because he was able to read any words. But later revealed he had lacked inference skill.

DS is a fast learner, grasps things quickly, but is not self-motivated (except around his current interests which might be something 'worthy' such as Greek mythology just as likely as something 'pointless' like a rubbish TV cartoon series). Therefore he coasts at school and hasn't been identified as 'gifted' despite being effortlessly top of the class whilst being the youngest child in it. Who knows - he might grow into his 'gifts' as school becomes more interesting, or he might just grow up as a fairly able, bright child.

The thing that school noticed at age 4 (just) was not that he was reading at Y1 level (not so spectacular) nor that he met all end of Y1 maths expectations (also not spectacular). No, headteacher approached me to say they had noticed he was really bright because...

... he had told them that mummy and daddy had been busy tidying up as the social worker was due to come (you can count on children to put things just the right way, can't you?) This lead to them gently questioning him and apparently the way he explained the situation (his sister is adopted, but at the time we were still fostering her, with the intention to adopt but the legal situation of being foster carers and as such having frequent Social Worker visits) was incredibly clear, informed, and mature for a 4yo.

Where do my child's 'gifts' lie now four years on (he's nearly 8)? I think he has a very good sense for maths but still not much drive/motivation. So he is probably ahead by 1-2 years but could be more if pushed. The ability to understand maths concepts and manipulating and applying them is there.
He reads 'many years above his chronological age' according to his latest report but what impresses me is his ability to read things fast and understand and retain so much, allowing him to create connections, reach insights and understand the world in a way you just wouldn't expect of a child his age. (He can't put it into writing though so not measurable)

So I think he might be gifted, and this might become more apparent as he grows older. In which case he would be an example of this giftedness being noticed later as it lies in a less black-and-white, easily measured area than e.g. maths. Though school did notice he was very bright, they could never have put any numbers on it such as '2 years ahead' or so.

Not sure if my child is GT yet, summer born just finishing reception and he is quite socially anxious. He has excellent language skills in terms of speaking, but is terribly shy.

Therefore on more subjective measures he is slightly more reserved. He is quiet in class yet probably the most able at speaking, and he struggles with writing.

He knows he can’t write as well as some of his classmates and will tend to shy away from these kinds of activities, therefore has self selected to be really amazing at maths.

His vocabulary for a 4 year old is just amazing, yet terrible at writing but can do some maths problems faster than me.

I do think there is something in the case of GT children being more into maths, I struggled with more subjective lessons at school also, but excelled in maths. (100% on all tests) there is something black and white about maths that probably appeals to w lot of children not just G&T ones z

Another angle is the mathematical skills of the rest are so weak so when a half decent kid comes along, they are being viewed as G&T.

Also possible, GHGN that the mathematical skills of the teachers are so weak that it is possible for a half-decent kid to outstrip the ability of primary teachers to challenge them in a way that won’t necessarily happen so often with English/science.

I think there is some truth in what you say nobkegirrafe I have heard some horrendous maths mistakes from primary teachers

Arrgh, I need to check before posting! "Noblegiraffe" and I can end a sentence with a full stop.

I have also noticed some scarily low reading comprehension skills in some primary school teachers (they don't seem to be able to comprehend statutory guidance documents, nor any e-mail or other written communication), and don't get me started on spellings!

But again, this relative lack of skills - when it occurs - might well be less visible to e.g. parents, even to parents particularly able and interested in literacy, than a lack of maths skills might be to parents able and interested in maths.

(Oh and in YR DS corrected the teacher when she taught them a song about dinosaurs that included a line 'some walk, some swim, some fly' so perhaps science skills/knowledge are not every primary school teacher's forte either?)

I am very protective of teachers - my husband is an excellent primary school teachers - and the main issue is that they have to teach 30 children, some of them will have learning difficulties, some will have serious disabilities. Budgets are being cut, which affects staffing, Teacher Assistants, resources, etc.

It also affects training, which means that some teachers will not be up to date with latest teaching methods, especially the newer concepts of mastery which is very important for the higher ability children.

When she was in Y1, DD was given maths word problems as an extension activity, including having to write a proof. She loved doing this, and the teachers thought it was because she was really good at maths. Actually, I think it was because she loves to understand the written word, and is good at explaining herself in writing.

Brilliotic: “what impresses me is his ability to read things fast and understand and retain so much, allowing him to create connections, reach insights and understand the world in a way you just wouldn't expect of a child his age.”

Last summer we were having lunch with friends, and I was telling them about a recent burglary at our house. Their 4-y-o son was fascinated, and questioned me to establish the details, and then discussed how evidence was collected, what else could have been looked for, impact of the weather, how to prevent future burglaries etc. The discussion lasted at least 20 minutes. It was a joy to see an exceptional young mind at work.

What I really found helpful on MN is how you can help your child with something they are good at but also with what they aren't.
I had many helpful advice in regards to my ds's maths learning. I would have just made him go forward with whatever he fancied if I never been here. Instead, I found out site like Nrich which stretches more side ways. My ds was naturally good at manipulating numbers, but not so much with word problems, which needs a bit more of thinking process.

With maths, a child with flair can be introduced to a concept/technique, and they can explore and extend it a great deal themselves.

How does a child develop exceptional literacy skills in KS1? I think writing a good book is setting the bar a bit high, but perhaps it’s a combination of speech, vocab, reading, spelling, grammar, interpretation, writing?

Wide vocab starts with speech I guess, so there is a significant advantage for a child who grows up with people who use a wide vocabulary. I am often surprised that so many Y1-Y2 children still apply ‘rules’ to common irregular verbs (eg flied instead of flew). DD just ‘got it’ with language. Is this an early indicator of ability?

Being read to, and then reading, expands vocabulary, though you need to discover what the new words mean. A child with good comprehension and inference skills can make sensible assumptions about the meaning of a word from the story, but will benefit enormously from having the precise meaning explained to them, or checking in a dictionary. This requires invested parents and a child who is really interested in what words really mean, and this process can disrupt the flow of the story.

Some children are naturally good at spelling and grammar. My DD just seems to remember/understand how words are spelled and how sentences should be constructed. For example, she didn’t have to be taught which of their, there, they’re, or to, too, two to use. She’s a keen reader, obviously. I’m not sure whether this is a ‘gift’ as such: I’m sure there are plenty of advanced readers with good comprehension and inference skills who are weak spellers/grammarians.

There must be a ‘world awareness’ element. Some children seem to have a greater ability to absorb, interpret and compare information and pick up nuance, whether from speech, writing or environment. Brilliotic and one or two others have touched on this. If a child has this type of ability I think it stands out clearly at school unless a child is very shy. My DD’s ‘show and tell’ sessions have impressed, for example.

Writing really divides the crowd at such a young age because so many aren’t physically ready to write at any length, so should it essentially be ignored until they’re a bit older than Y2? DD happens to love writing, and because she has the whole ‘package’ of attributes mentioned above, her writing stands out at this stage. I’m very interested to know whether this advantage will stay with her, or whether others will catch up as they are taught the techniques she has developed for herself.

My DS2 who in pre-school has just turned 4 has been obsessed by letters and the alphabet since 2 and a half. He knows pretty much all of his phonics now (including augh, ough etc.). He reads at YR1 level.

He asked me to do Maths a few weeks ago and we have started but I'm not as good at helping him as with phonics/reading.

But as soon as he started he understood odd/even, counting in twos, very easily. I'm starting to suspect that he will be better at maths than literacy.

Reading early is not itself exceptional, but it's the very fast grasp of concepts and technical bits, like grammar for example, that surprises me.

For example, we will introduce a new phonic and he will give examples with the same spelling (i.e. grow, slow, rainbow etc.). We talk about consonant blends, digraphs, and also nouns, adjectives, etc. He almost enjoys talking technically as much as the rest. He likes to show what he understands.

That's this layer of cognition that makes him a bit advanced for his age. I'm yet to meet one of his peers from pre-school who thinks analytically like this. I find him fascinating.